tone controls

[Edward 1]

I'm not regular on this forum, and I apologize if this topic has been discussed too many times. But I would really like to hear your opinion on cables and tone controls. The other day I've changed turntable in the main sistem. Though Microseiki played better, Ariston has higher WAF factor, and I'm not imune to its finish either. But it sounded kind of muddy. First I tried to change interconnect cable. It helped, but not too much. Than I was thinking about changing speaker cables, than cartridge, and so on. But on one point I tried to switch tone defeat off, and to increase treble and - everything was perfect! Now, my friends tells me that when the system is adjusted properly all the controls should be at 0. But I can't see logical reason to mess with cables, cartirdges, settings, etc. just to get the result I can achieve simply by two 'clicks' increased treble.
I mean – why am I not supposed to use tone controls? If I have an amp with tone controls? It is great when you have perfect sound with tone defeat 'on', but if I can correct it, why not? It is much easier than to experiment with dozens of cables and combinations of cables...
What would you do? Simply adjust the sound or search for the right cables for current setup? And than do it all over again when you change a component?

[MartinT]

Because, simply put, tone controls mess with the amplitude and phase of the signal and something of its purity is lost. No tone control is perfect and many are awful - most make far too coarse a change to be recommendable. For this reason, many users such as myself prefer a system without tone controls.

If your system preserves the signal well then the way to fine tune the sound is via supports, cables, room tuning etc.

HOWEVER - saying all that, if tone controls work for you then that's fine, and our opinions count for little :)

[Marco]

Great answer, Martin - I fully concur! Hope this helps, Edward! :)

Marco.

[Thing Fish]

I don't have tone controls on my amp but if I did and I felt the music sounded better then I would use them.

As stated previously if it sounds better to you then so be it. Just enjoy your music. Its as simple as that.

[Barry]

If you find you have to leave the tone controls permanently set away from 'zero' for all your listening, then that sounds as though the tonal balance of the entire system is awry. If on, the other hand, you only make adjustments depending on the recording, and these changes are small, then that is not too bad.

Martin is right when he states that no tone controls are best; they do affect the phase and usually are too coarse or crude to be of much use.

On the Quad 44 and 34 preamps, there is a 'tilt' control which has the effect of tilting the entire response up or down by 1 or 2dB. I have found on some recordings which sound a bit 'thick', an upward tilt of 1dB to be effective.

I would however disagree that the frequency balance should be adjusted by experimenting with cables. If this happens then there is something wrong with the design of the equipment between which the cable connects.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Could be, could it not, that the cables (or something else) are already acting as tone controls & the adjustment to the controls is restoring things back to something like it should be?

[Barry]

Could be, could it not, that the cables (or something else) are already acting as tone controls & the adjustment to the controls is restoring things back to something like it should be?

That was what I meant by the "tonal balance of the entire system". In my opinion each component in the chain, from source to speaker, should be as tonally neutral as possible, that is, have a flat frequency response.

[Butuz]

The only tone control I have is my on off switch and that's the way I like it!

Your milage may vary however!

Butuz

[The Grand Wazoo]

Sorry Barry, yes I somehow missed your post.

[Rare Bird]

Long live tone controls..

[Marco]

:eyebrows:

And fat-bottomed girls! ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

:eyebrows:

And fat-bottomed girls! ;)

Marco.

Qué ?

[Marco]

rhKDV0QN4ew

:)

Marco.

[Ergoline]

I use the tone controls on my 70s Sony, because without them my JBLs sound a touch on the bright side. However, there is a better sense of an instrument's or performer's "body" (if that makes any sense) without them, but then the system is fatiguing to my ears. I recently bought a tube amplifier that doesn't have tone controls, and I've found that tube rolling enabled me to find a similar balance, but I don't lose that sense of realism that I do when I use the controls on the Sony.

I think what others have said is true; most tone controls are inherently lossy/destructive to the original signal. That said, if the tone controls correct a balance issue, render poor recordings listen-able, or just plain old match your preferences, go for it. To put it another way, if you're gaining more than you're losing in a given application then you're not doing anything wrong.

Of course, if we get into the world of parametric EQs and other super-premium stand-alone units, then it's a new ballgame.

[Rare Bird]

:eyebrows:



I have that fold out poster from the 'Jazz' album somewhere with all the brids stripped off on their bycicles

[Marco]

I have that fold out poster from the 'Jazz' album somewhere with all the brids stripped off on their bycicles


Yeah, brill, innit? Especially if you could sniff the saddles afterwards! Mmm... I'm getting 'beef Oxo cube with a hint of anchovies'... :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

Yeah, brill, innit? Especially if you could sniff the saddles afterwards! :eyebrows:


:eyebrows:

[Marco]

:eyebrows:

Hahahaha.... Quality! :lolsign:

Marco.

[Edward 1]

My friend who is really into hi-fi told me exactly this:


...tone controls mess with the amplitude and phase of the signal and something of its purity is lost. No tone control is perfect and many are awful - most make far too coarse a change to be recommendable. For this reason, many users such as myself prefer a system without tone controls.

and this:


If you find you have to leave the tone controls permanently set away from 'zero' for all your listening, then that sounds as though the tonal balance of the entire system is awry.

That is the case with my system I'm afraid, and that is why my friend insists that my system needs serious adjustment. He announced his visit with various interconnect and speaker cables, microphone, and other equipment, for he thinks that components like these should work much better. I did not mention it for it is in the gallery section, amplification is Tandberg 3006A+3038A and speakers are Tannoy Stirlings. Stirlings even got treble energy control on front panel

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=1598812&is_user=0

and I'm able to adjust treble on speakers, but he says it is as bad as tone controls.

I wanted second opinion, for in my other system with Marantz 2250b receiver, I play with all those controls all the time - bass, treble, mid, dolby, loudness, low filter, high filter, depending on source and recording. And it is encouraging to read this:


HOWEVER - saying all that, if tone controls work for you then that's fine, and our opinions count for little :)


...if it sounds better to you then so be it. Just enjoy your music. Its as simple as that.

However, I'm looking forward to play around the main system for 1. it may work, 2. it will be fun, 3. it won't hurt. And I can always fix it with tone controls... I'll let you know if it worked.

Thank you all!!!

[MartinT]

and I'm able to adjust treble on speakers, but he says it is as bad as tone controls.

I disagree with this statement as the controls on speakers generally switch into circuit different capacitors (or resistors) in the crossover. Since you will always be listening to only one of them at a time, switching between them will not degrade the signal. I would say, adjust to suit your preferred sound.

[John]

The other thing to think about is room interaction, this can have effect on sound and maybe causing the issue

[Tea24]

Marco, I am seriously dissapointed with that clip of yours; I was slavering at the lips & all I saw was a gaggle of half naked MEN.:doh: Seriously not my bag tthough it may be to some peoples taste:rolleyes:. Oh well; Down Boy;).

As to tone controls I have the Quad 66 with aforementioned slope control & it is very useful indeed on some older Lps and particularly old 78s, which, even after re-equalisation sometimes need a bit of adjustment.

[Rare Bird]

Can someone explain to me why people change amplifiers like they are going out of fashion (without insulting my intellegence that is)..

[MartinT]

Personally, I latched on to what I like a long time ago, so it has just been upgrades within the same brand. I'm on my third Pass Labs preamp and second Chord power amp (across some 12 years) and I'm not likely to change either for a very long time.