View Full Version : Pioneer PL-112D
Like a numpty I gave away most of my collection of vinyl about 3yrs ago (something I now much regret) but did at least keep hold of about 50 albums a few of which I don’t have in digital format and would very much like to be able to play again and so have decided to try and find a cheap turntable.
Well three weeks into the new carboot season and there seems to be a distinct lack of Garrard 401’s or Techie SL1200’s for a fiver, however I did managed to get hold of an unloved Pioneer PL-112D which looks like it had spent the last 20yrs in someones shed. Anyway I gave it a good clean and it’s not come up to bad and I think it may do the job to begin with if I can get it fixed up. I’m aware that when new this was only a budget turntable but from what I can read on the net some people say they can sound OK if set up properly. Known faults so far are as follows:-
Mock brown vinyl wood stuff peeling of the plinth
Drive belt perished
Turntable mat missing
Finger arm (not sure of the technical term) missing from the headshell
Lid very scratched but not cracked, hinges are OK.
Have downloaded the user manuals from Vinyl Engine and it shouldn’t be too much hassle to sort the above problems as long as nothing electrical needs doing. I’ve got hold of some iron on veneer and I’m currently redoing the plinth, I’ll post a pic when done.
Cheers:)
Jac Hawk
26-03-2011, 23:54
Good luck with that mate, i was looking at getting a PL115 off ebay before Dave gave me the SL1800, from what i've read Pioneers from the 70's are good decks, in particular the tonearms seem to be well regarded.
Hi Rich,
There were three budget decks that ruled the roost back in the late 70's, early 80's. One of those was the Pioneer PL12D (from which the your 112D was derived), and the other two were the Sansui SR222 mk2 and Trio KD1033. They were all great sounding budget decks, but the latter two had their faults. The Sansui had to be located really well as the mk2 plinth was quite susceptible to howlround. It appeared to be quite a solid structure, but it wasn't. It was also the only one of the three that didn't possess a suspended sub-chassis. The Trio's arm wasn't up to much, although the rest of the deck was solid, however the Pioneer was the best of the bunch in my opinion. The arm was very good considering the price of the deck (around £80-£100 IIRC), and could accommodate a wide variety of cartridges. The build quality was also excellent.
I believe Pioneer abandoned the suspended sub-chassis design for the 112D, and having never heard this model I'm not sure how it would compare with the PL12D.
Beobloke
27-03-2011, 10:30
Although a respectable enough performer, sadly the PL-112D is some way behind the PL12D in performance terms.
Mothman, treat it to a new belt and a simple rubber mat and see what you think but I wouldn't throw too much dosh at it.
Hi Rich,
I believe Pioneer abandoned the suspended sub-chassis design for the 112D, and having never heard this model I'm not sure how it would compare with the PL12D.
Hi Dave,
Thanks for the info. My PL-112D would appear to have a sprung sub-chassis:scratch:, however it looks like the tone arm design is diifferent from a PL-12D, I guess this was done to cut costs.
The 112D looked good when new, but Adam above is spot on regarding the sonics, although it was recommended in a 'Choice compilation. To be honest, the ubiquitous (at the time PL12D) isn't up to much sonically either - and I had a good few to work on in my time. The ortofon F/FF 15 cartridge seemed a good sonic match and possibly better than the Shures or AT's around.
The auto Pioneers from this period (and the cheaper Sony's and Panasonic/Technics decks too) had dire auto trip linkages - and I'm talking worse than a Garrard or BSR autochange groove-grinder as well, so avoid at all costs unless an OM Pro or Stanton 500 is going to be used.
Good luck. I've a Pro-ject Debut 2 you can have fairly cheap if it doesn't work out...
hifi_dave
27-03-2011, 10:48
I agree with the above (above) that the PL12D or PL112D aren't worth spending much on when you can pick up a Rega Planar-2 or Planar-3 for notta lot.
NOTTA LOT????? The bloody knackered old Planar 2's with R200 arms incorporating crumbled bias adjusters fetch a ton these days, and that's 50% more than the bloody things cost new!!!!! :lol:
OK,OK, looks like I've bought a turd:doh: guess I'll not try polishing it to hard:lol:
However as it's all I have available for the moment I may as well try and get it going whilst spending as little on it as possible. So far it owes me £8 including the veneer. The awfull brown vinyl has gone so SWMBO is happy and after an hour of elbow grease some of the scratches have come out of the lid
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/okmothman/Hi-Fi/PL112D.jpg
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/okmothman/Hi-Fi/PL112D002.jpg
Next step I guess is get a new drive belt. I assume aftermarket ones like those sold on fleabay are OK?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TURNTABLE-DRIVE-BELT-FITS-PIONEER-PL-12D-PL-112D-/290432607483?pt=UK_Consumer_VintageAudio_RL&hash=item439f21e4fb
The headshell has a Shure M75ED Type 2 cartdridge fitted. Given that the decks a dog, do you think I would get away with using the original stylus for now?
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d45/okmothman/Hi-Fi/PL112D003.jpg
Cheers
Looks like an M75-6S stylus. If you remove the "lateral balance weight," which caused more problems than it solved tbh, the arm will probably take an ED stylus if you can find one, tracking at or near 1.5g.
For mats, try a lightweight one, rather than a heavy rubber jobbie.
Jac Hawk
29-03-2011, 20:02
you've done a nice job cleaning it up Rich, a belt, a new cart and a mat and you're away, may be an idea to give it a service too, you know oil the bearings etc.
If you're entering the "cheap as chips callenge" you could use it as your source maybe.
I have a PL-12D in use here in a secondary system, along with a 112D in storage that I picked up in my travels. I'd take either of those tables over the entry level Project and Rega tables of today considering how cheaply they can be acquired.
The link below has some suggested tweaks to get the most out of the table. Put a decent cartridge on-a Denon DL 110 would be a great match if you have the right phono preamp for it-and I think you might be surprised at how good it can sound. A good mat will do wonders as well.
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=865887&highlight=further+adventures+pioneer&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dfurt her%2Badventures%2Bpioneer%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26 topics_only%3DN%26author%3D%26date1%3D%26date2%3D% 26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC %26forum%3Dvinyl
I have a PL-12D in use here in a secondary system, along with a 112D in storage that I picked up in my travels. I'd take either of those tables over the entry level Project and Rega tables of today considering how cheaply they can be acquired.
The link below has some suggested tweaks to get the most out of the table. Put a decent cartridge on-a Denon DL 110 would be a great match if you have the right phono preamp for it-and I think you might be surprised at how good it can sound. A good mat will do wonders as well.
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=865887&highlight=further+adventures+pioneer&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dfurt her%2Badventures%2Bpioneer%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26 topics_only%3DN%26author%3D%26date1%3D%26date2%3D% 26slowmessage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC %26forum%3Dvinyl
Have you actually compared these Pioneers with Regas and Pro-jects? I've compared both the 12D and the 112D with Rega 2's and 3's and it doesn't matter what you do with the Pioneer deck, the Rega's ran rings round them sonically, if not in feel and finish.
I'm never likely to ever do this kind of comparison again, but my memories at the time were quite definite I recall ;)
hifi_dave
29-03-2011, 21:47
I remember it well. We always had a PL12D or PL112D when they were current and ran them against the Planar-2 and Planar-3 of the time. We never sold a Pioneer.
We also had a TD160, TD160 'Special' a Sansui SR (?), Systemdek IIX, Manticore and all manner of budget turntables as they became fashionable - the Rega's saw them all off.
Thing is with the Rega, they look and are very simple designs but beautifully put together. That bearing they have been using for ever is so well made and the old Pioneer's are really sloppy and rough in comparison. The plinth and feet allow vibrations to pass through with minimal interference and the motor is extremely quiet. Then there is the platter - relatively heavy, flat and dead with the correct mat in place. As for the arms, they are legendary.
Some may mock but they have always been great budget decks. They sound very good, are easy to set up and use and are reliable. If they need repair or service, the very first model can be quickly and cheaply brought up to spec. What's not to like ? :scratch:
Some may mock but they have always been great budget decks. They sound very good, are easy to set up and use and are reliable. If they need repair or service, the very first model can be quickly and cheaply brought up to spec. What's not to like ? :scratch:
And that's the whole point and bearing in mind that early Planar 2's fetch at least 50% more than they cost when new.........
Have you actually compared these Pioneers with Regas and Pro-jects? I've compared both the 12D and the 112D with Rega 2's and 3's and it doesn't matter what you do with the Pioneer deck, the Rega's ran rings round them sonically, if not in feel and finish.
I'm never likely to ever do this kind of comparison again, but my memories at the time were quite definite I recall ;)
The comparison I was making was with, as I said, "the entry level Project and Rega tables of today", stuff like the Project Debut and the Rega P1.
My brother owns a Debut and I would gladly take the Pioneer with a DL 110 over the Debut at a typically new price that would probably be double what you'd have invested in the Pioneer any day. From what I've read about quality control issues with the P1 I'd have to say the same about that one as well. Perhaps Rega has improved things with the RP1.
Now if I could buy a Rega 3 with a great cartridge on it for $150 or under 100 UKP that might be a different story.
I borrowed a Rega 3 in June 2010 with a view to buy and gave it back after a couple of days, a truly awful machine. Speed stability sucked majorly and I am not a fan of the RB250 and Rega cart combo that came with it. Compared to the Thorens TD316, LVX+ and Linn Basik cart I was using in my system at the time, the Rega sounded dead and lifeless. Rega's are not my cup of tea I'm afraid. :sofa:
hifi_dave
30-03-2011, 09:54
The Rega Planar-3, P3 and P3-2 has always had the RB300 or the RB301 nowadays. Not the RB250...:scratch:
hifi_dave
30-03-2011, 10:00
From what I've read about quality control issues with the P1 I'd have to say the same about that one as well. Perhaps Rega has improved things with the RP1.
As someone who has sold thousands (yes) of Rega turntables, I can tell you that there were no quality control issues with the P1 or any other of their turntables. They are amongst the most reliable products on the market.
You read on forums and hear from dealers who can't get the agency about such things but the reality is that Rega make great products.
Interesting reading guys, thanks for the input both good & bad.
However there does seem to be enough positive comments from 112D owners on the net to a least warrant giving this deck an audition before showing it the door. I appreciate it may not be as good as a Rega but then again I didn't pay Rega money for it.
The Rega Planar-3, P3 and P3-2 has always had the RB300 or the RB301 nowadays. Not the RB250...:scratch:
Hi Dave,
Of course you are correct about the RB300. This particular deck was secondhand though and the guy informed me at the time that he was hanging on to the original RB300 to fit to another deck and that he had replaced it with a spare RB250. He was up front about this from the beginning ;)
As for your PL112D Rich, it has cost you peanuts and the results you have achieved with the clean up and veneer are first class. If you are happy with the sound it produces then you've done alright, if not, then you can always sell it on for a profit and add some funds to grab something a little further up the food change ;)
As someone who has sold thousands (yes) of Rega turntables, I can tell you that there were no quality control issues with the P1 or any other of their turntables. They are amongst the most reliable products on the market.
You read on forums and hear from dealers who can't get the agency about such things but the reality is that Rega make great products.
Are dealers still using that "other dealers can't get the agency" line? That approach is not particularly original and really doesn't carry much weight with me.
I'm glad you've sold thousands and not had a problem. What I've read online has been from users with wobbly MDF platters that were out of round, counterweights that were not remotely accurate in terms of setting tracking force (no problem if you have a good scale of course but many buying an entry level table won't), motor noises, belts that were not machined correctly etc. Perhaps isolated incidents.
Everyone has an opinion. That's what makes the hobby interesting. The one below runs counter to yours. Upmarket Regas may well be a different story, but we're talking about the budget end of things here.
http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=952993&highlight=pioneer+rega+p1&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fauthor%3Dmdjukic9 9%2540yahoo.com%26user_id%3D18999%26forum%3DALL%26 sortRank%3DNone%26sort%3Ddate%26sortOrder%3DDESC
Sorry Mr Blake,
I sold "hundreds" of Regas up until 2004 and rarely had any problems at all. Back in the days of suspended motors, the shippping often had a negative effect, but this was sorted IN THE DEALER SETUP as a matter of course and subsequent transportation HORIZONTALLY!!!!! It appears that some Rega dealers are selling unopened boxes these days and this is something the likes of dave and I never do or did..
Old wrecks may be in need of a new belt, a clean and lube and tightening of the main parts. Failure to do this will result in a very iffy sounding turntable. We accept this on springy belt drives, so why not lightweight wooden plinthed (which compresses) structures.
Oh, by the way, the main problem with the Pro-ject debut series was the OM5e cartridge, which is brash and with no bass to speak of. An OM20 stylus should sort it, or better, an AT110e or 120e when stylus change comes along. the counterweight can be adjusted with the help of a stylus balance to check setting.
hifi_dave
30-03-2011, 19:25
Dave, you're wasting your breath, we have a real expert here - he's been 'reading' all about it...:lolsign:
Let's face it, the generic Rega is a flexible rubber-cord drive and weighs not much, so they can't be any good can they? :D
Oi you two, behave!!! Your Shredded Wheat's showing :ner: :lol:
Point on the OM5E is well taken. That's the standard cartridge on the RP1 here in North America as well. I even like the AT120E suggestion (that's the cartridge on my PL 12D here actually).
The problem is once you buy the entry level Project or Rega and spend money to upgrade the cartridge you have a serious cash outlay. Buy the Pioneer for cheap, scrap the old beater cartridge on it and put a decent one on and you are still less than half the price of the Project or the Rega. And, according to at least some who have compared, you'll not only have a table, you'll have a better one.
I've heard the Pioneer against the Project-I've posted links to others who have heard it against the Rega (including someone who also spent a considerable amount of time in the audio business, for all that's worth) along with issues that seeming OWNERS of the Rega have encountered.
Of course, these were clearly not customers of the double Daves and I have now been educated on the global conspiracy of non-Rega dealers to discredit the product by posing as unhappy owners on the internet forums. It must be really tough to be a non-Rega dealer and they obviously have a lot of time on their hands. You learn something every day. :lolsign::lolsign::lolsign:
Jac Hawk
31-03-2011, 01:10
As for your PL112D Rich, it has cost you peanuts and the results you have achieved with the clean up and veneer are first class. If you are happy with the sound it produces then you've done alright, if not, then you can always sell it on for a profit and add some funds to grab something a little further up the food change ;)
True, it's not that the PL112D was bad, just that there are better decks about, at the end of the day mate, if it pleases YOU then it will have been worth it, plus as long as it doesn't cost you too much to fix it, then if you don't like the way it sounds, you could probable turn a small profit by selling it on ebay.
hifi_dave
31-03-2011, 09:08
Of course, these were clearly not customers of the double Daves and I have now been educated on the global conspiracy of non-Rega dealers to discredit the product by posing as unhappy owners on the internet forums. It must be really tough to be a non-Rega dealer and they obviously have a lot of time on their hands. You learn something every day.
I have little idea of what goes on in other countries but I have a fair idea of the market here where Rega dealers are outnumbered about 10 : 1 by other dealers including the chains. Rega have a policy of restricting the dealer base, so there are hundreds of non Rega dealers.
Rega products have always been very popular, especially their analogue products where their sound, build, reliability and backup are amongst the best. So, what happens is that prospective customers often contact a dealer who hasn't got the Rega agency, asking about the products. Does the dealer direct the customer to a Rega dealer or does he rubbish the product ?
I can tell you, with some experience, that a lot of 'rubbishing' goes on and I am confronted by it almost weekly. Just this week I had a CD player enquiry where the customer was told by a nearby non Rega dealer that 'Rega CD players are rubbish, unreliable and suffer with broken lids'. Nothing could be further from the truth - it's simply that dealer's way to switch sell the customer.
Since 1973 when I started selling Rega turntables, we have had countless enquiries where a.n.other dealer has attempted the switch sell by rubbishing the Rega product. A similar situation exists with Naim products, where the dealer base is restricted and enquirers are often worried by tales from non Naim dealers. I'm sure the same thing goes on with cars, cameras, TV's etc. If you don't stock it - rubbish it.
Rega dealers are obliged to set up and check every TT (except the RP1 now) they sell, so faults should be almost negligible. Since I started selling Rega, the number of faulty TT's out of the box I have had can be counted on one hand and those faults were corrected within minutes and before the customers took delivery.
I can tell you that Rega turntables are well made, well thought out, reliable and sound good. They might not be your preference but Rega must be doing something right because they are now producing over 2000 TT's per month.
Jac Hawk
01-04-2011, 19:21
I can tell you that Rega turntables are well made, well thought out, reliable and sound good. They might not be your preference but Rega must be doing something right because they are now producing over 2000 TT's per month.
Very impessive seeing as we are way past the golden era for TT's
hifi_dave
01-04-2011, 19:34
Apparently, they are gearing up for more.
Very impessive seeing as we are way past the golden era for TT's
Well from my own personal perception, vinyl does seem to be in a resurgence, I go to a lot of live gigs (43 last year) and there has been a steady increase of vinyl available on the merchandise stands, even smaller bands are releasing some stuff on vinyl - this was unheard of about 10 years ago, when it was just CD's for sale :scratch:
hifi_dave
01-04-2011, 19:53
Around ten years ago, we sold maybe 2-3 turntables the whole year and I thought that was the end of vinyl. Since then, all things analogue have picked up nicely and I now sell 10 turntables for every CD player.
Strange old world...:scratch:
And all this despite the mainstream media's best efforts to poke fun at the 'vintage gramophone' and those who own one. Personally, I think it's a backlash against ever changing digital formats and the intangible MP3 file.
However, the cynical side of me reckons that Johnny Record-Label-Owner is beginning to panic over illegal downloads and has suddenly realized things weren't so bad in the good 'ole days when he actually had something tangible to sell, and that he might just be giving the vinyl resurgence a gentle nudge from the wings.
And all this despite the mainstream media's best efforts to poke fun at the 'vintage gramophone' and those who own one. Personally, I think it's a backlash against ever changing digital formats and the intangible MP3 file.
However, the cynical side of me reckons that Johnny Record-Label-Owner is beginning to panic over illegal downloads and has suddenly realized things weren't so bad in the good 'ole days when he actually had something tangible to sell, and that he might just be giving the vinyl resurgence a gentle nudge from the wings.
There's maybe an element of truth in that?
I don't know though, if any real money is being invested in new pressing machinery. It looks as though that the UK pressing plant(s) are still using ancient leaky old presses which really need replacing.
Give it time Dave. Once the money men realize the market is there, the investment will be forthcoming... ;)
I am surprised to hear people comparing the Pioneer PL12D and similar to Regas.
I remember way back opening up the first PL12D we had, and thinking "Wow, this will kill Garrard AP76 (maybe even SP25MkIII) sales". That was the price bracket it was in, around £30-£35 if memory serves. The quality of finish and sheer eye appeal of the Pioneer (and the fact that it came with its own little Pioneer screwdriver) made the Garrards and McDonald MP60s look like children's toys, and cheap ones at that.
There were no Regas around at that time. Compared to the competition it initially faced, the PL12D was a super deck, you had to go up to a Thorens 150 to get better. A lot of PL12Ds, and the predecessor PL12AC, were sold to people who came in for the SP25 range of TT, it looked so much better that it was an easy upgrade (about £10 more). The Garrard 401 would have been substantially more expensive, as it sold for £36 plus VAT as a chassis without plinth or arm. An Ariston with arm was £90 +VAT. A Linn in a plinth, no arm, was about £60. (At those prices, a whole turntable based system would have cost over £300! Outrageous.)
But it wasn't built as an audiophile deck, it was Pioneer's entry level after all. It wasn't until the hifi mags started touting the replacement headshell and other mods that that perception changed.
This was the time when the big British companies who had bought up the hifi manufacturers, like Garrard (Plessey), Goodmans (Thorn), Leak (Rank) and that ilk, really dropped the ball, imho, and left the game to the Japanese. By the end of the 70s, the man on the Clapham omnibus bought Japanese if he wanted a reasonably priced music system. This was not necessarily a bad thing.
I have a PL12D which I bought at a car boot sale for about £4 :). It was sheer nostalgia for me: although I never had owned one before, I sold thousands (probably). I enjoy it for it was and what it is.
Hi darucia,
My initial point was that the PL12D was a good budget deck in its day, and also, that one bought cheaply today and which has been treated well would probably see off a fair few current budget TT's. I believe the OP is aware his 112D is not a giant killer, but as it was acquired for very little cash he was inquiring as to whether it would embarrass itself in his system, and I don't believe it will.
As I've not heard a Rega of any persuasion in comparison with a PL12D I couldn't possibly venture an opinion as to which is better. However, as I am not a huge fan of Rega's anyway, my opinion may by a tad biased ;)
Incidentally Mothman, I have a Dual CS506-1 sitting in my garage that's in need of a little tlc. Cosmetically it is in good nick, but it could do with a service and may need a new platter as the previous owner left it in his loft and the belt perished, stuck to the platter, got damp and instigated a little corrosion. It's not major and could probably be skimmed off using a lathe, or you could monitor eBay for a replacement platter (they turn up quite regularly and don't go for a lot). I notice you are in Newbury. If you want it and can get to Corby in Northamptonshire, you can take it away with you. Free to a good home, if you will. PM me if you are interested ;)
Stratmangler
03-04-2011, 21:56
Give it time Dave. Once the money men realize the market is there, the investment will be forthcoming... ;)
Don't go fooling yourself - the market is small, and will only survive as long as folk are prepared to pay over the odds for poor quality new pressings.
Don't go fooling yourself - the market is small, and will only survive as long as folk are prepared to pay over the odds for poor quality new pressings.
I'll remain the optimist thank you. Somebody has too... :lol:
Stratmangler
03-04-2011, 22:43
I'll remain the optimist thank you. Somebody has too... :lol:
So you're with Canute then ? :lolsign:
You know my mad cousin??? :stalks: :lol:
Incidentally Mothman, I have a Dual CS506-1 sitting in my garage that's in need of a little tlc. Cosmetically it is in good nick, but it could do with a service and may need a new platter as the previous owner left it in his loft and the belt perished, stuck to the platter, got damp and instigated a little corrosion. It's not major and could probably be skimmed off using a lathe, or you could monitor eBay for a replacement platter (they turn up quite regularly and don't go for a lot). I notice you are in Newbury. If you want it and can get to Corby in Northamptonshire, you can take it away with you. Free to a good home, if you will. PM me if you are interested ;)
Hi Dave, Many thanks for the very kind offer. If the Pioneer doesn't work out then I may well be in touch. I am in no rush at the moment as I'm currently using a T-Amp with 4 ohm speakers but I don't have a seperate phono stage. I've got an A&R A60 which I eventualy plan to use with a turntable but can't use it until I can get my 8ohm Audiomaster speakers repaired. Thanks again:)
Rich
What Audiomasters are they?
Dave, they are MLS4's, I posted about them in the below thread which you contributed to.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9620
Unfortunately my first foray into DIY audio did not go well, I attempted to recap the crossovers but I'm pretty sure I have buggered the first crossover I attempted:(, I hope it can be saved but for the moment I have decided it prudent not too proceed any further. Once I have finished working on the cabinets I will try and find someone who knows one end of a soldering iron from the other to see if they can correct my handywork. I've had them 30yrs so would prefer not to lose them.
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