Marco's latest vintage marvel.... [Archive]

Marco

24-03-2011, 17:30

A week ago, I mentioned to DSJR that I'd discovered another vintage cartridge I considered was a bit of a gem, and which was much maligned (likely because some of the equipment it would've been partnered with in its era, would've been fairly poor - I'm thinking here mainly of preamps/phonostages), well ladies and gentlemen, I give you the old BBC war horse: the Goldring G800, purloined from eBay for the grand total of £3.70 (exc stylus)....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280638378938&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/9351/img0435c.jpg (http://img861.imageshack.us/i/img0435c.jpg/)

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7060/img0434n.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/img0434n.jpg/)

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/4493/img0438js.jpg (http://img716.imageshack.us/i/img0438js.jpg/)

For those interested, the headshell is NOS, from the 1980s (which cost over 10 times as much as the cartridge did!), as are the headshell leads (Sansui SSL-101 LC-OFC):

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8746/9c1h.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/9c1h.jpg/)

The G800 likes a bit of mass, so the LT-12 solid magnesium headshell, plus a 1g spacer weight, (13g in total, excluding mounting hardware) is perfect. VTF sounds spot on at 2.5g (from a range of 2-4g).

To say that this cartridge (in my system) is high in the SPPV stakes, would be an underestimation akin to intimating that Sir Edmund Hillary 'did quite well climbing a wee hill' :eyebrows:

I'm off to do a few things, but will return later with my thoughts on a cartridge harking from 'ye olden days' that shines when used with decent equipment, and yet again shows a clean pair of heels to much of the frigid and forensic sounding tat made these days in the budget to mid-end cartridge arena.....

Laters! :cool:

Marco.

P.S Dave, and it was even born in Suffolk, so you should feel right at home! ;)

shane

24-03-2011, 17:37

If it's the one in the photo, Marco, then it's got a non-Goldring stylus in it. Genuine Goldring styli had Goldring written on them. Non OEM replacements are very common.

Marco

24-03-2011, 17:43

Yup, Shane, but it sounds mighty fine for not having an original stylus on it! However, it needs a few album sides of use before losing a slightly sibilant tendency. I got the stylus from here:

http://www.stylusplus.co.uk/stylus-for-goldring-g800-lp-cartridge-7231-p.asp

They also sell the 'posher' elliptical one for £30....

Right, must shoot - LATERS! :)

Marco.

Marco

24-03-2011, 19:36

After Shane's observation about styli, I thought it prudent to obtain an original. This one came with a free cartridge!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170612141169&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5818/kgrhqqokj4e00u3f9qjbnc2.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/kgrhqqokj4e00u3f9qjbnc2.jpg/)

;)

We'll see what condition the stylus is in........

Marco.

keiths

24-03-2011, 19:42

You're making me feel nostalgic - I had one of those on my first ever turntable: a Garrard SP25 Mk III

Reid Malenfant

24-03-2011, 19:44

You know i just don't understand this :scratch: First up he goes & buys some Celestion Ditton 66s (which i own as well) & now he goes & buys the same cartridge that i also have kicking about here somewhere :eyebrows:

I'm off looking for a hidden camera :D

Marco

24-03-2011, 19:46

Nice one, Keith. I hadn't even heard of the G800 until Dave (DSJR) mentioned it in a thread discussing cartridges the BBC once used for broadcasting purposes, and as I have somewhat of a 'fetish' for that sort of thing, I decided to see if it would fulfil my expectations.

I very happy to say it did :)

Marco.

Mike

24-03-2011, 19:50

I got one of those some time ago. For free!

It was crap and went in the bin... Are you sure your ears are OK? :lol:

SPS

24-03-2011, 19:52

I must have 3 or 4 on those on different decks marco.. i've never bothered to try them...

i'm trying to get the new spu run in.. so it will be a few days before i have a look

cheers
steve

Marco

24-03-2011, 20:04

I got one of those some time ago. For free!

It was crap and went in the bin... Are you sure your ears are OK? :lol:

Of course they're not - I'm just a big daftee, remember! :eyebrows:

Steve, you should try one. It doesn't quite have the magic of the M3D, but it sounds really ballsy and tons of fun on my Techy :)

New SPU? Tell us more!! Which one did you get?

One thing though, the G800 is not the highest output MM I've used (certainly when auditioned subjectively), so you need a phono stage with enough gain to allow it to shine. Or perhaps I'm just used to the sonic effect of high-gain MC step-up transformers, when using the 103 or SPU. The output level is certainly lower than I get with the SPU, through the A23.

Still, all it takes is a heavier lean on the volume control, and all is well!

Marco.

Marco

24-03-2011, 20:08

Reid Malenfant

24-03-2011, 20:10

It's a just a case of dafties think alike!!

Marco.
I guess audio dafties should after all :D

MCRU

24-03-2011, 20:12

Daftie or dafteeee, well Marco you are quite a character, what does it sound like with some techno or house music daftee?

Marco

24-03-2011, 20:22

Rocks like f*ck, super-daftee - as it does with all my 80s 12" singles. Bass is powerful and extended but tight as gnat's arse, and as rhythmic a Rasta throwin' some shapes, diggin' the jiggy in da crib on nature's finest herbs..... :peace:

It's also very detailed sounding and not at all dull or 'soggy', like I've heard people referring to it as. However, not only does it boogie, it also does subtlety too, and is exceptionally good at rendering vocals with a goodly dose of realism, for an MM design.

It took a bit fine-tuning though to get it to sing. I can understand it not working well on some modern tonearms, which are of the low-mass variety, particularly unipivots. But it LURVES the Jelco in a heavy (ish) headshell! :gig:

Marco.

MCRU

24-03-2011, 20:28

You must have too much time on your hands sourcing all this vintage gear, wot should I put on the end of my Garrad 401 then, its been sat 2 months waiting for an arm board!

Marco

24-03-2011, 20:31

What arm's on your Garrard - the 309?

Marco.

MCRU

24-03-2011, 20:43

No, no, no. The 309 is waiting for the Roksan Shiraz to be re-tipped and then that is my Techie finished, no more will be done to it.

The 401 has the Technoarm sat next to it, not wired in yet as no arm board, I also have an audio technica arm and RB250 and RB300 and a Linn basic plus.

Marco

24-03-2011, 20:47

Lol - you're certainly not a one-armed bandit, eh? :eyebrows: Which Audio Technica arm is it? That sounds quite intriguing.

Going back to the Goldring, one must remember that the BBC would've used it in a Gray tonearm, something like this:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1849/kgrhqrjie1nrrknbnbdic3d.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/kgrhqrjie1nrrknbnbdic3d.jpg/)

...which is of course high-mass, so I doubt you'll get the best from the G800, using it in the sort of tonearms found on most modern turntables. An original Lenco arm, I think would be ideal. Something like this:

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/9441/107b3b480d05b564e828a07.jpg (http://img713.imageshack.us/i/107b3b480d05b564e828a07.jpg/)

The other thing is that the G800 is physically a big cartridge and difficult to accommodate elegantly (or even optimally) in a 'normal' headshell. The LT-12 I'm using is around 3cm longer than the standard headshells found on most tonearms today. Have a look at the headshell on the Lenco arm (above), noting its size and relative bulkiness, to get an idea of how to house a G800 properly in order for it to perform optimally.

Here's a more detailed picture of one: http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1328/kgrhqqokje1s026kbtbni0n.jpg (http://img715.imageshack.us/i/kgrhqqokje1s026kbtbni0n.jpg/)

You can see how much space is in there to do the job properly. It's no use crushing all the tonearm wires to get it to fit into a puny-sized modern headshell, which will ruin the sound, and also increase the likelihood of signal loss.

Marco.

shane

24-03-2011, 21:59

When I started selling hifi, the bog-standard cheap as chips system was Garrard SP25, Goldring G800, Amstrad 8000 and Wharfedale Dentons. All items equally "cheap and cheerful"!

Marco

24-03-2011, 22:06

Indeed, but consider the desirability of some of that kit now, and also how much of it would outperform much of what's made today - and realise that, in reality, it wasn't really "cheap and cheerful", certainly not in a sonic sense ;)

Marco.

shane

24-03-2011, 22:43

Hmmm, not too sure about that! The SP25 rumbled like a Chieftain tank on a Bailey bridge (the design of it's main bearing dictated that), and the Amstrad was genuinely nasty. The Dentons weren't too awful and the Goldring was probably the best bit, but any reasonably competent modern microsystem from the likes of Denon would piss all over the whole lot for about the same sized lump out of a weekly pay packet.

Marco

24-03-2011, 22:51

but any reasonably competent modern microsystem from the likes of Denon would piss all over the whole lot for about the same sized lump out of a weekly pay packet.

There, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree :)

I'd rather have an SP25 with a decent arm on it, mounted in a proper plinth, than a Pro-Ject, or some other lightweight modern, mass-produced, elastic-band shite of its ilk! As for microsystems, I guess they're ok if you don't mind a 'micro-sized' sound....

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

24-03-2011, 23:29

One of these was my first cartridge, and it was on an SP25.
My old man, years before, had a different SP25 and a different Goldring G800.

Marco

24-03-2011, 23:46

What was the different Goldring like, Chris - different in what way? Got links to any pics? :)

Pics of the different SP25 would be useful, too!

Marco.

The Grand Wazoo

24-03-2011, 23:58

What I actually meant was that they were the same model, but not the same articles. That's to say, I didn't inherit them from my old man, he got rid of his rumbly old clankety-clank machine, then a good few years later, I got into music properly & found my own rumbly old clankety-clank machine.

I got the plinth-less Garrard chassis from a mate & another mate just happened to have a suitable plinth lying around doing nothing. It gave me a huge amount of enjoyment though & I still have almost all of the records I played on it, so the stylus treated them well.

No photos, I'm afraid.

Marco

25-03-2011, 00:17

Ah, I see... Sorry, I misunderstood what you meant. The Goldring certainly is a very musical sounding cartridge, which has clearly been voiced to be as accurate as possible, without undue emphasis on any part of the freqency range.

It's one of those rare designs which simply allow you to 'get into' the music with the minimum of pomp and ceremony. Me likes! And for £3.70 (£14.70 including a stylus), it has to be the biggest bargain I've ever had in hi-fi! :)

Incidentally, talking of vintage gear, I won this little chap earlier, which I intend to try on the Techy (many thanks to Andre for alerting me to it):

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/714/kgrhqjhye1fwbyk9tbnfngz.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/kgrhqjhye1fwbyk9tbnfngz.jpg/)

I suspect that it's fairly rare. I thought that the finish would go rather well with the copper section of my Mike New platter. I also intend to discover if its record flattening abilities are as effective as that of the Oyaide weight and mat combo. If so, the Michell clamp will be an even bigger bargain than the Goldring!! ;)

Marco.

Barry

25-03-2011, 00:51

When are you going to get a replacement stylus for the Shure SC35 cartridge (body) I gave you? It too was a preferred cartridge by the BBC.

Would be interesting to compare it with the Goldring.

But if you are looking for a cartridge with an excellent SVPP, then it has to be the Grado GTE+1. Unfortunately I no longer have one to play with.

Regards

Marco

25-03-2011, 00:56

Hi Barry,

I've obtained a stylus now for the SC35C. You must've read my mind, as I've got the beasty wired up inside my Fidelity Research S/5 headshell, ready to do battle with the Goldring tomorrow - so watch this space, amigo! ;)

Marco.

Barry

25-03-2011, 01:05

Marco

25-03-2011, 01:13

All will be revealed - and with pics, too! :)

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2011, 01:27

But if you are looking for a cartridge with an excellent SVPP, then it has to be the Grado GTE+1. Unfortunately I no longer have one to play with.

I'll keep an eye out for one. Here's an interesting picture:

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3690/retrocart1.jpg (http://img849.imageshack.us/i/retrocart1.jpg/)

I think someone else has similar tastes to you and me ;)

Marco.

P.S Name that headshell....

synsei

25-03-2011, 02:04

Ah, the G800 (sighs). My first cart, which I fitted to an ancient Rigonda idler-drive record deck that had an arm so massy it'd make the cranes at a dockyard seem feeble. It didn't sound 'alf bad though... :lol:

SPS

25-03-2011, 09:15

there where a few models of the 800
yours is the standard 800 by the look of it,, and retailed for around £13 in 72

there was a g800e at around £18, the g800 super e at £26, and the high out put g800/h at around £10.50

the super e was nearly as as much as the ortofon Sl15e, back in 72.....

i'm sure i have an '800 e' somewhere .

the spu is the synergy, it sounds very nice.. only got about 12 hours on it so far..
it's slightly better than the dynavector 30a.. but not by alot at this stage.

Marco

25-03-2011, 11:36

Hi Steve,

Nice one on the SPU - hope it hits the spot for you. It should sound fab on your FR/124 combo!

Thanks for the info on the Goldrings.

The interesting thing is that elliptical styli are always touted as being automatically 'superior' to conical ones, and thus more expensive, and in a technical sense they are, but usually I can't help but prefer conical ones, as although they don't quite have the fine detail retrieval of an elliptical stylus, somehow sound overall more musical to my ears.

Therefore, for that reason, I'm not sure if I'd prefer the 'Super E', or any of the others above the basic model.

Does anyone else or you know if the D110H stylus shown on this website (a quarter of the way down) is compatible with my G800?

http://www.adelcom.net/GoldringStylus1.htm

Marco.

Beobloke

25-03-2011, 12:57

Marco

25-03-2011, 13:06

Arf!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

DSJR

25-03-2011, 19:03

Well, since I'm now the self-proclaimed expert on "tat" cartridges from yore, I'm going to reserve current comments on G800's until I receive my collection - I have some G800's and 800E's coming my way along with a GL78 turntable mat.... Since I have the Garrard Lab 80 spinning as I type, I should be in a good position to comment :lol:

The G800 does have a massive suckout in the mid treble (a factor of its ancient design [by John Wright of IMF/TDL fame I remember] in 1968 or thereabouts) and I remember an original sounding rather plump and confused on "Brain Salad Surgery" when compared with a Shure M75-ED with which I replaced it. The 800E with light grey/dirty white stylus assembly was rather better and clearer I remember and the 800 Super E was sublime for the period, although soon left behind in the V15III/681EEE/XLM/1000ZE-X/M15E cartridges that came along in the early 70's. Goldring fought back with the 820 series and the Super E won a group review... I was using a VV7 cartridge preamp at the time and apparently this preamp has very narrow bandwidth and overloads easily these days, so we'll see.

The Lab 80 has come with an M75-EJ with a broken stylus and I can't yet afford a proper replacement, so I chucked in the M55E with Ed saunders stylus. There's some buzzing in the background, so before I get inside to check earthing etc, the sound so far is gorgeously sweet and NOTHING like the M55E normally is (a bit distant and rough with a fizz in extreme top).

I look forward to trying the G800's again, especially the E's. You never know, I might be tempted with an AP76 to put them in.......... ;)

I can't believe how much Shure is charging for its remaining cartridges these days (except the M97XE which can be got for very reasonable money still). The SC35C sounds very like an M75-EJ - gently rolled off but very stable and "solid," but for £50, I'd rather have an Ortofon OM pro and £20 change or a Nightclub E for similar money - or even a 510mk2 I think...

P.S. The very early G800's had no writing on the styli, only after 1973 or so did the "Goldring" logo appear on the stylus front...

Marco

25-03-2011, 19:53

Hi Dave,

As ever, your comments are as valid as anyone else's, however, this:

The G800 does have a massive suckout in the mid treble (a factor of its ancient design [by John Wright of IMF/TDL fame I remember] in 1968 or thereabouts) and I remember an original sounding rather plump and confused...

....is fundamentally, indisputably, unquestionably *NOT* what I'm hearing! ;)

The G800 sounds sweet, wide-open, detailed - in fact, any words you care to mention which define the POLAR OPPOSITE of what you've just written.....!!

Have I made myself clear enough, lol? And I see that your favourite wee word "plump" has made an apprearance again - where's "syrupy" away to? :lol:

I wonder why we have this extreme disparity sometimes with our experiences of cartridges? :scratch:

It was the same with the SPU (and the M3D before it), and we know how wrong you were about that!! Ah well, the entertainment value is worth it! :eyebrows:

Marco.

P.S Barry, I did the comparison between the G800 and SC35C today. Interesting.... I haven't finalised my thoughts yet, but will do once I've had a proper listen to both over the weekend.

DSJR

25-03-2011, 20:51

I'm not going to rise to this Marco, but the "massive suckout" has been catalogued in reviews of the period (I think there's a Gramophone review-scan online). If this is evidenced as a pleasant sweetness to you, then fine, as I have the same "effect" with the M55E, which was even worse I remember :) The V15III had a major design tweak incorporated (laminated pole pieces) which sorted this problem, which many older magnetic types have. This flat response can be a problem with the nails/styli they fitted originally, the later HE (and MR?) ones being very much better I remember.

Also, I did suggest the plump and soggy quality may have been because of the Goldring VV7 phono-preamp I was using (many cheapo £20 preamps would out-perform it I understand) and I stand by my statement that I look forward to trying out the ones I have coming :)

Oh, by the way, my experiences of the after-market styli weren't too good at the time, but again, modern automated diamond grinding/polishing should be better than budget priced efforts 40 years ago...

Darren

25-03-2011, 20:59

Hi Marco,
Do you think that the differences between your experience of these old cartridges and Dave's are anything to do with the fact that he heard them 'in period' as it were with equipment that was around at the time and that you are transposing them into a completely different environment?
Is the highly and valuable Technics/ Jelco combo dragging performance out of these carts that just wasn't available at the time?
I once heard a pair of Wharfdale diamonds sound great on the end of £20k's worth of Mark Levinson electronics..... It didn't make them great speakers it just enabled them to perform right at the edge of their envelope.

Marco

25-03-2011, 21:03

I'm not going to rise to this Marco, but the "massive suckout" has been catalogued in reviews of the period (I think there's a Gramophone review-scan online). If this is evidenced as a pleasant sweetness to you, then fine...

Lol - that's not what I meant, Dave.

The problem is, mate, you're obsessed with "reviews of the period" and treat them as some kind of 'written in stone' bible.

I don't give a monkey's bollocks what was catalogued 35 years ago in "reviews of the period" (no doubt derived from using 'shite of the period' as partnering equipment - I'm only interested in how the cartridge sounds in my system.

I think people respect my opinion on these matters enough by now to realise that I wouldn't be saying what I have about the G800 unless it was true.........

On that note, I'm off to spin some more tunes - laters :)

Marco.

Marco

25-03-2011, 21:15

Hi Darren,

Do you think that the differences between your experience of these old cartridges and Dave's are anything to do with the fact that he heard them 'in period' as it were with equipment that was around at the time and that you are transposing them into a completely different environment?

Yes, I think that's *exactly* what's going on. That, and with respect, Dave pays WAY too much attention to what is written in ancient hi-fi mags.

The sort of equiment I'm using now is in a different league to what would've been used to assess the merits of the G800 in the 1970s, particularly in terms of preamps and phono stages, which are of course hugely influential to cartridge performance.

I don't really want to dwell on this too much, so as to save arguments, but the fact is there was a lot of equipment made in the 70s which was REALLY good, but few would've heard how good it was because of the deficiencies of much of the partnering equipment then - and crucially, massive advances in the quality of things like supports and cables.

That's why the Tannoy Monitor Golds, Celestion Ditton 15XRs, Studio 66 Monitors, M3D cartidge, and many other pieces of equipment in my system, sound significantly superior than they would've done when they were first introduced onto the market, using the ancillaries of the day. Only now with the advantages of modern technology, and having learned so much about system set-up in the last 30-odd years, are we able to hear just what some vintage kit is sonically capable of.

Anyway, we'll leave it there ;)

Marco.

DSJR

25-03-2011, 23:01

I'm not challenging you at all Marco and the M55E is showing me this at the moment, but just 'cos you like it doesn't mean it may still have issues, benign as they may be. The quality of the after-market stylus cannot be ignored either, as the one or two I heard, admittedly long ago now, were rather sharp and rough.

If all goes well, I'll have a collection of original plus one new pattern stylus G800's plus a 800E or two with any luck to play with. I'm not writing the thing off, but the G800 has got to go some if it's to knock an AT95E off the top-budget pickup perch - and I KNOW how good the 95E can be in a decent modern deck, as well as the Lenco arms, which it loves....

[edit] P.S. I've just ordered a new ATN95E stylus with which to compare :)

DSJR

25-03-2011, 23:06

P.P.S. - Do you have ELP's Brain Salad Surgery on LP Marco? AT THE TIME, I found that my G800 had difficulty with the percussion on "Toccata..."

Marco

25-03-2011, 23:35

No problem with any of that, dude - it was simply the "massive suckout" you mentioned earlier, which quite simply, does not exist in my system, and how you appeared to be stating its existence as fact. Whoever observed that particular phenomenon, must've been experiencing issues belonging to the test system at the time.

I think we have to remember that vintage gear, just like modern kit, reacts differently depending on what it's used with, and so what was written in mags about something 35 years ago isn't necessarily applicable or even relevant now.

One should always make allowances for the effect of multiple variables, and so very little in hi-fi should be written in stone.

If anything is amiss with the sonic presentation of the G800, then it's that the top-end currently exhibits a little over-emphasis, but that's likely because the stylus isn't properly run-in yet. Treble quality otherwise, however, is excellent with plenty of detail and sparkle. Other than the need for the stylus to run-in, the G800 is *very* good indeed with the kit I'm using, and has few weeknesses, considering that it is supposedly a budget MM design - and an ancient one at that.

I agree that the quality of aftermarket styli is important for these vintage designs - it was too with the M3D - so I intend to play with ones from different suppliers, as the conical versions are pretty cheap to obtain.

When the other G800 arrives, with its Goldring original stylus, it'll be interesting to hear what that sounds like.

Btw, when you do get around to fitting any of your G800s, use an arm with some mass, particularly at the headshell end, as I've found it definitely likes that :)

Here's hoping that you enjoy your Goldrings as much as I'm enjoying the one I have :cool:

Marco.

P.S Yes, I have BSS, and so will give that track a spin, and report back.

DSJR

26-03-2011, 00:47

synsei

26-03-2011, 01:25

Potential arguments aside, this is a fascinating debate...

Like Dave, I was an avid reader of such august tomes as What HiFi, HiFi Choice and my personal favourite, Practical HiFi, back in the days of yore. I wasn't earning nearly enough money to be able to afford any of the delightfully esoteric gear that was ensconced within their hallowed pages in the '70's and early '80's. More importantly, having initially left home, I moved back into my parents house in 1981, renting a small 12ft by 6.5ft room from them. It was just about big enough to house a single bed, a small 'Tall Boy' wardrobe and a bedside cabinet. I set about installing some decent shelving above my bed to house the small amount of kit I had accrued since the mid 70's: A Rigonda Corvette record deck with a Goldring G800 cart, which I mentioned earlier. A Sony TA73 15wpc amp and a pair of Videoton Minimax speakers.

The Sony amp didn't really have enough balls to drive the Minimax's properly if I'm honest, but in such a small room and with a step-father who would yell at me to turn it down on a whim, it didn't do too bad at all. By necessity the Minimax's were on a shelf above the headboard to my bed, wired in reverse (left to right, right to left), and the rest of the kit was housed on a slightly lower shelf over my bedside cabinet. I was dead proud of that little system as it cost me peanuts (the speakers were a gift from my Dad, and the TT & Amp cost £5 each s/h), and although it didn't major on gut-wrenching bass, the overall sound was very pleasant indeed. A lot of budget cart swapping (Grado FCE+1, Glanz MFG11T and various Shures) and a couple of years later, the Rigonda finally gave up the ghost. The system was replaced by a Sony Music centre with larger, bassier but inferior speakers and the amp and Minimax's were consigned to the loft where they stayed and were forgotten when we moved.

Fast forward in time to November 2010 and an old friend popped over bearing a box containing a tiny pair of speakers he'd bought from a charity shop for a couple of quid. He'd bought them on a whim as he liked the look of them. They appeared to be well made and he wanted a decent, cheap pair of boxes for a small system he was planning for his bedroom. When he described them to me I suggested he pop 'em round so we could listen to them on my system.

Well, imagine my surprise when I opened the box and saw a pair of mint Minimax's. The nostalgia flooded back and I've never been so keen to wire up a pair of speakers in my life. We sat the little boxes on top of some anti-slip matting placed on my LS55's and sat back to listen to Dark Side Of The Moon (flac lossless). With slightly more modern hardware and close to 120wpc to play with, those little boxes sang their tiny hearts out. They were absolutely stunning! Really, how do speaker designers manage to reproduce such massive, pin-sharp soundstaging from so tiny a box? The speakers just vanished, and in their place was Pink Floyd, the band, and a trillion floating, ticking clocks, all from a speaker that was considered 'budget hifi' in its day.

I think this experience illustrates the point of this debate perfectly. Pick your vintage gear carefully. Be even more careful when matching it with relatively modern kit, and you could end up with a huge smile on your face, and money in your pockets. How I regret my forgetfulness now... :doh:

http://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/RigondaTT.jpghttp://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/SonyTA73Amp.jpghttp://i1019.photobucket.com/albums/af316/Sgtgrash/Hifi%20Stuff/VideotonMinimaxspeakers.jpg

DSJR

26-03-2011, 10:08

Marco

26-03-2011, 10:27

I think this experience illustrates the point of this debate perfectly. Pick your vintage gear carefully. Be even more careful when matching it with relatively modern kit, and you could end up with a huge smile on your face, and money in your pockets.

Dave, you are absolutely right! Lovely pics and some nice memories. I lurve the tonearm on the Rigonda - just my sort of thing! :respect:

My whole system has been assembled based on the philosophy you describe (as was the system we demonstrated at Scalford Hall), and the results speak for themselves.....

If you can judiciously select the best vintage gear and marry it with quality modern designs, then in my experience the rewards can be fantastic, and as you say, you can save yourself a whole load of money.

The problem is, so many of us are conditioned to believe that equipment made now is automatically better than something made over 30 years ago, or more. In some cases that is true, but it is FAR from being an absolute. An open mind and some lateral thinking are required.

In fact, in my experience, preamps and phono stages aside, along with advances in digital technology, it is rarely the case when a quality vintage component is compared directly to its modern equivalent, that the former loses out in areas such as 'musical realism' or 'musicality' (there's more to it than that, but we'll call it that for now for the sake of brevity), and certainly build quality.

The other thing too, is that it's part of the human psyche to judge things based on our past experiences of them, or what we may have read about them in books or magazines, which is perfectly natural. However in doing so, it can close our minds to the influence of other variables, such as how vintage equipment behaves within a modern infrastructure, as we have been discussing.

It can also lead to absolutes, and erroneous conclusions being reached. Therefore, the only way to know with any certainly how good a piece of vintage equipment *actually* is, is to assess (or reassess) it within the context of a modern system, and not simply dismiss it based on what was experienced 'back in the day'. I do hope some folks are listening! ;)

In that respect, the Goldring G800, used in the context of a modern system, is genuinely a quality cartridge. Based now on extended listening, I have no doubt whatsoever about that. A budget design it may have been 35 years ago, but then one must remember that 'budget' equipment in those days was a rather different beast to what it is today.

We're talking about in the days before mass consumerism, falling standards, and when equipment designed catered for a discerning audience, unlike in most cases today. Therefore in those days, equipment had to be good, even if it was 'cheap' - and the G800 epitomises that philosophy very nicely indeed.

Source a decent stylus (or find a NOS one, if you're lucky) and pop the Goldring on the end of a high-mass tonearm (with a suitably large headshell), run it through a quality preamp and phono stage, and prepare to be shocked and stunned at how little advance has been made in cartridge design since the days when most of us here were reading the Beano and the Dandy................

Marco.

DSJR

26-03-2011, 10:45

Actually Marco, the G800 wasn't a "budget" cartridge back then, it was a broad range from the G800H (red stylus) for the SP25's and tracking at 2.5g, to the slightly higher compliance 800 proper, tracking at a shade under 2g or so, to the 800E with elliptical tip tracking at 1.5g and the double priced approx 800 Super E which was "Top End" for the period, tracking at 1.25g (the lower the tracking weight, the better the cartridge ;) ).

Seriously though, the Super E was really lusted after back then, but the 800E was the popular one for "transcription" style turntables like the Thorens, Lencos and better Garrards (the ones promised me have all come from GL75's and 78's - long story there).

I don't know how much different the 820 series replacements were, but by then, Shure ruled the audio waves and the M75-ED (got a good one of those too) was king of the middle ground.

Looking at some of the tests and knowing Mr Colloms at the time from mid-distance, I reckon that some of these pickups were slagged off because of the "next big thing..." There was quite a choice of cartridges coming along in the late 70's and some of these were really good I think, but now things have died off a bit, it's nice to go back to when things weren't so hysterical and blinkered and try again with some of these :)

Marco

26-03-2011, 11:02

Absolutely, Dave. You've hit the nail on the head with this:

Looking at some of the tests and knowing Mr Colloms at the time from mid-distance, I reckon that some of these pickups were slagged off because of the "next big thing..."

That's the problem, and as people are predisposed to believing what 'experts' say, what they write, is what sticks in their mind. That's why, on AoS, I'm determined to break through that prejudice and alert people to exactly what they're missing out on with some vintage gear! ;)

Thanks for the info on the hierarchical pecking order of the various Goldrings, which is noted.

I intend to try a 'posher' elliptical stylus on the G800 (and of course the NOS one I've got coming), so that will be interesting, but I'm not necessarily expecting to prefer it.

Marco.

Marco

26-03-2011, 16:52

Can I just check something with 'those in the know', as it were. Did the G800 range all use the same generator and body (or similar), and so the various models simply had a different stylus profile?

I've been having a good listen today to the beastie, and I know exactly what it reminds me of in my system: the 'cooking' DL-103 (when partnered optimally), only better!

The G800 has a similar musical presentation: very rhythmic, musically fluid, with a beautifully expressive midrange full of subtlety, texture and tonal colour, but without the graininess and slightly recessed high frequencies of the stock 103.

However, it has the 103's tight bouncy bass, cavernous low frequency extension, and overall 'fun factor'. It also has wideband soundstaging, exquisite stereo separation, and filigree detailing, the latter which somewhat escapes the 'cooking' 103, making the G800 a most addictive listen.

Furthermore, does anyone know if the G800 uses Alnico magnets? I'm sure I can hear their 'house signature', which I absolutely adore :)

It also shares some traits with the Shure M3D, although it doesn't quite have its level of midrange magic, a la SPU, or the former's slightly fruity bass, therefore I'd say that the G800 is a cross between the DL-103 and M3D, which as I own all three cartridges, I can say with some confidence.

Not bad for a cartridge that cost me the grand total of £14.70! However, there is still further tweaking to do, as I feel that some more mass is needed, and so I've ordered this little chap from Analogue Seduction:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230591274318&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:GB:1123

...which I'll be popping onto the LT-12 headshell, thus allowing me also to use the heavy Jelco counterweight balance (the cartridge/headshell combo at the moment isn't heavy enough), and in total increase the tonearm's effective mass. BEWARE: this is not a cartridge which will perform optimally in a low to medium mass tonearm. It is a traditional low-compliance design.

I've also found that VTF is better set at 2.7g, as opposed to 2.5g, which is where everything clicks into place. It's all good fun! I'll update further, as and when I have anything new to add :cool:

Oh, and Barry wanted to know how the Shure SC35C compared with the Goldring.... Well, quite simply, there is no comparison, as the G800 trounces it! More on that later.

Marco.

DSJR

26-03-2011, 19:04

Marco, as far as I'm aware, all the G800's used the same body. They're "induced magnet" types, hence the magnet disc above the stylus assembly and just behind the "G" on the front. ADC used similar techniques, which I believe to be a moving "magnetisable material" rather than a moving fixed magnet, if you know what I mean.

The original G800 may have all but bottomed out at 2.7g, the G800H being the one for that play-weight. HOWEVER, please follow link below -

http://es.shure.com/idc/groups/tech_pubs/@global_managed/documents/webcontent/us_pro_m80e_ug_27a425(1-68).pdf

I can't lift the relevant text, but halfway down, there's a reference to after-market M3-D styli (I'm assuming this was written in the early 70's or late 60's at the earliest, around the time the M75 series was launched). The variation between all the then available pattern styli was horrendous. I know that automated production would help hugely here, but I suspect the aftermarket G800 stylus would be different (better?) than the original.

Marco

26-03-2011, 19:33

Hi Dave,

Marco, as far as I'm aware, all the G800's used the same body.

Ah, thanks for the info. It's what I suspected, and rather proves my point that the Goldring *is* a quality cartridge, if the 800E and Super E were so highly regarded in their day.

It's the generator which is at the 'business end' of how a cartridge intrinsically sounds. The stylus type simply alters the final presentation, therefore which one is 'superior' will depend on how one prefers music reproduced, vis-à-vis the sonic signatures of conical vs. elliptical styli.

Me? I'll happily trade a (little) fine detail retrieval and treble extension for the 'boogie factor' and natural tonality of a nice conical tip.

The original G800 may have all but bottomed out at 2.7g, the G800H being the one for that play-weight.

Ok, that's interesting. You can solve something for me then: First of all, this is the stylus I'm using:

http://www.stylusplus.co.uk/stylus-for-goldring-g800-lp-cartridge-7231-p.asp

Observe where it says:

Tracking Weight: 2 - 4 Grams

So, at 2.7g, I'm still well within the recommended range. However, it isn't an original G800 stylus, although it is a conical type :)

Now, going back to the G800H you mentioned, have a look here, and scroll down about a quarter of the way to where the D-110H and D-110E styli are shown:

http://www.adelcom.net/GoldringStylus1.htm

Could those be used with my G800 cartridge?

HOWEVER, please follow link below -

[urlhttp://es.shure.com/idc/groups/tech_pubs/@global_managed/documents/webcontent/us_pro_m80e_ug_27a425(1-68).pdf[/url]

I can't lift the relevant text, but halfway down, there's a reference to after-market M3-D styli (I'm assuming this was written in the early 70's or late 60's at the earliest, around the time the M75 series was launched). The variation between all the then available pattern styli was horrendous. I know that automated production would help hugely here, but I suspect the aftermarket G800 stylus would be different (better?) than the original.

Interesting! I'll have a look at that. Meanwhile your answer to the above question would be useful - churz :cool:

Marco.

Barry

26-03-2011, 20:04

Brilliant:)

The Lab 80 rumble-box has all the classic "idler" qualities of pitch and subtle timbre and the arm is actually perfect for the job - and with a solid cast headshell too. Some screws needed tightening and now the arm doesn't rattle around and retains low friction. even the auto-trip which has its roots in the 50's models seems to behave at side end. The "Ed Saunders M55E" sounds lovely in it and the bass now behaves itself, unlike in the Dual 701, where the bass was a bit thick and indistinct.

What is the "Ed Saunders M55E" Dave?

I have sample of the Shure M55E that I have been meaning to dig out and give it a listen. The M55E was my first 'serious' cartridge after the M3D, and at the time I much preferred it to the M3D.

SME used to show the M55E fitted into the 3009 arm in adverts of the time. That was what prompted me to buy one.

Regards

DSJR

26-03-2011, 22:39

OOOOOWWWWWWW - those prices Marco..

I can't exactly remember, but the original G800H was around 2.5 to 3g, the G800 around 2 to 2.5g, the 800E around 1.25 - 1.75g and the Super E about 1.25 IIRC. Of course, back then "we" tracked as low as possible with no understanding of proper groove contact. A call to Expert Styli may be worthwhile, as a worn original may be better retipped with a naked diamond? Jico do a D110 stylus and this could be considered too - the one you have may be this already with any luck...

I've just found a foreign site giving original G800 specs as compliance "20" and suggested playing weight as 1 - 3g, which is about right according to memory.

Barry, if you look on fleabay, you'll see that Ed Saunders in the US has some hand finished re-makes of the Shure V15 series and a couple of others. These styli are Swiss made (not Jico's) and the diamonds are hand set the Rega way (with a shadow-graph). I understand that Rega styli are sourced in Switzerland as well and fitted to their bodies here. All I can tell you is that the Ed Saunders stylus sounds very sweet, the ssssssparkle in extreme treble well controlled and not intrusive I think. Tracking is ok if not as spectacular as later V15 models (the M55E was the V15mk1 I understand) and only Grace & Danger by John Martyn defeats it (SSsssweet little Myssssstery ;))

Marco

26-03-2011, 22:46

OOOOOWWWWWWW - those prices Marco..

Thanks for the info, Dave, but does that mean the 'D-110H' and 'D-110E' styli shown on that site are compatable with my G800, or not? :scratch:

I need to know before I order any, dude.

Marco.

DSJR

26-03-2011, 22:52

They'll fit the body and work as well as they can. The "E" would be my choice as treble "should" be clearer. The H wouldn't be necessary as it's more for old Garrards like the old SP25's and older 4HF's etc... I can't remember if the main difference between the 800 and 800H wasn't output as well (so long ago, sorry), the "H" being higher..

Marco

26-03-2011, 22:54

Ok, churz. I might give the 'E' a go if I can't find it cheaper somewhere else :)

Marco.

Barry

26-03-2011, 22:55

Barry, if you look on fleabay, you'll see that Ed Saunders in the US has some hand finished re-makes of the Shure V15 series and a couple of others. These styli are Swiss made (not Jico's) and the diamonds are hand set the Rega way (with a shadow-graph). I understand that Rega styli are sourced in Switzerland as well and fitted to their bodies here. All I can tell you is that the Ed Saunders stylus sounds very sweet, the ssssssparkle in extreme treble well controlled and not intrusive I think. Tracking is ok if not as spectacular as later V15 models (the M55E was the V15mk1 I understand) and only Grace & Danger by John Martyn defeats it (SSsssweet little Myssssstery ;))

Thanks for that Dave. I'll get around to fitting the stock M55E in my SME and see how it sounds. Then maybe later I track down one of those Ed Saunders stylii. But only after I've had one of my Deccas worked on by Presence Audio.

Actually that track off 'Grace and Danger' should sound like "Schweet little meeschtery" ;), just like the track "Walking on sausages" :lol:

Regards

synsei

26-03-2011, 23:51

Ok, churz. I might give the 'E' a go if I can't find it cheaper somewhere else :)

Marco.

Marco, give Goldring a call mate. They have said that they can re-tip my 900IGC with a Van Den Hull, now that would be interesting to hear on your G800 ;)

p.s. If we get the opportunity to meet up sometime, I'll bring the G900 with me to try on your deck. I think you may get even more of what you are hearing from your G800 ;)

Marco

27-03-2011, 10:40

Nice one. Sounds like a plan, Dave. I like the idea of re-tipping, which I'll probably have that done with the original stylus when it arrives :)

Marco.

DSJR

27-03-2011, 10:51

The 900 series was a HUGE departure from what went before, the sonics becoming almost etched and sharp by comparison. I loved the 910 and 920 "IGC" models and these would be well tamed in a good modern turntable. I suspect the 1042 uses similar mechanicals in a different body...

I need to drag out the decent M75-ED I have, as this may be the bridge between the very old and more current designs.

Marco

27-03-2011, 12:57

The 900 series was a HUGE departure from what went before, the sonics becoming almost etched and sharp by comparison.

Mmm... If that's true, then it won't be my cup of tea. The G800 (in my system) doesn't lack top-end extension, nor is not dull or 'plummy' in the slightest. It just sounds 'right': beautifully musical, with a very well judged tonal balance.

If the 900 series went all forensic and 'etched' sounding, like for example how the current Goldring designs sound, or bloody Ortofons or Audio Technica MMs, then I'll give it a miss.

I'd still like Dave to bring it along, though, so I can have a listen for myself :)

Marco.

DSJR

27-03-2011, 14:08

Got the M75-ED out, cantilever looked ever-so-slightly bent and promptly fractured when I tried to straighten it!!!! You'd have thought I'd know by now, wouldn't you :(

Marco

27-03-2011, 15:39

Nightmare, Dave.... The good thing though about MMs is that the styli are easily replaced :)

Marco.

DSJR

27-03-2011, 18:27

But what happens if you want a good original Shure one??????? :steam:

Marco

27-03-2011, 18:57

Mmm....you have a point. Mind you, if it was bent, chances are it was fooked before you tried to straighten it....

Marco.

shane

27-03-2011, 19:20

One thing I wonder about with these 30 to 40 year old cartridges. Even if the stylus had never been used, wouldn't the rubber, nitrile, polyurethane or whatever used in the cantilever suspension have deteriorated over the years?

Marco

27-03-2011, 19:24

Perhaps, Shane, in some instances, but I certainly can't hear anything wrong with the sample I have :)

Marco.

Marco

28-03-2011, 13:53

I've just bought another original G800 stylus, which comes with a free cartridge:

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8923/kgrhqiokjoe1rggi22bnjkl.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/i/kgrhqiokjoe1rggi22bnjkl.jpg/)

:eyebrows: :eyebrows:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170620662689&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

I spied that on eBay last night, and bagged it. The styus looks in really good nick and perhaps better than the original one on the other G800 I bought, so I thought 'what the hell?'. I can always sell the surplus cartridges to folks who might fancy trying one of these babies :)

I'll also have three samples from which to judge if there is any evidence of "the rubber, nitrile, polyurethane or whatever used in the cantilever suspension, having deteriorated over the years", as Shane suggested earlier could possibly be the case. If so, I'll simply keep the best sample. It's nice to have a choice ;)

Anyway, look out for the results of my 'stylus rolling', soon!

Marco.

synsei

28-03-2011, 14:10

My 900IGC is certainly not a lowrider, so I guess all is well with it. I have it tracking @ 2gms in my SME SeriesIII simply because it sounds far more composed at this weight. Because that is a little over the recommended tracking weight I'm sure any cantilever suspension problems would be apparent.

Marco, the 900IGC doesn't sound at all analytical in the SeriesIII, and it is far more refined than a 1042. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say, so we'll just have to wait and see, or rather hear... ;)

By the way, is Scalford Hall in Rutland the same Scalford Hall where the show is held, because if it is, I live just a 30 minute drive away?

Reid Malenfant

28-03-2011, 14:38

By the way, is Scalford Hall in Rutland the same Scalford Hall where the show is held, because if it is, I live just a 30 minute drive away?
Yes, 3 miles out of Melton Mowbray :)

synsei

28-03-2011, 15:07

Thanks Mark, then I shall defo be at the next show ;)

DSJR

28-03-2011, 18:05

The SME III was a "subtle" performer, to put it mildly, so an energetic cartridge will be all for the better in this arm I think.

It'll be very interesting to hear the results of Marco's stylus bakeoff too. The Lab 80's got some balls missing (not all my fault I can assure you ;)), but replacements are ordered and hopefully will be with me tomorrow..

synsei

28-03-2011, 20:00

I tried a borrowed 1042 in the LVX+ on the TD316 and the result was not pleasant. It was very shrill at the top end and I suspect the LVX+ was having problems keeping it under control. I haven't had the opportunity to try one in the SeriesIII as yet and I'm not sure it would work well in this arm anyhow.

I agree that the G900 and the SeriesIII are an excellent match Dave. In fact, when Chris demonstrated the TD160 mk2/SeriesIII/900IGC at his place when I went to pick it up, we were both blown away by the gorgeous sound it produced. It would appear there is a little bit of magic going on in this combo. I'd love to bring the deck to a bake-off because the whole seems to be better than the sum of its parts, relatively speaking of course. My only gripe with the SeriesIII is that it is a fooker to set up. I still haven't got it quite right... :rolleyes:

DSJR

28-03-2011, 20:06

The 1042 is a strange beastie, truth be told and not universal as the cheaper ones can be. Stick one in a Rega 3 and it's fine, but try it in something lively and it's just as you suggest, sting in the treble and lead footed in the bass.....

To be fair to the Basik Plus arm, it may be past its best now. they weren't all that strong and the mechanical joints may be loose or fatigued now, let alone the counterweight insert, which can turn to goo after a few years, let alone twenty five years as many of these are now.

synsei

28-03-2011, 20:16

I had been warned about the little issues that crop up in LVX's over the years from quite a few Vinyl Engine members, so I had it checked out. I'm glad to say that this particular LVX+ is as fit as a fiddle. Not that it'll be mine for much longer because in just 40mins from me posting this, it'll have sold on eBay along with the my Thorens TD316... :lol:

Marco

28-03-2011, 22:10

Hi Dave,

Marco, the 900IGC doesn't sound at all analytical in the SeriesIII, and it is far more refined than a 1042. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as they say, so we'll just have to wait and see, or rather hear... ;)

By the way, is Scalford Hall in Rutland the same Scalford Hall where the show is held, because if it is, I live just a 30 minute drive away?

As Mark's said, yup, dat's da one... Be good to see you there next year - it's a good giggle! :)

I dislike the 1042 with a passion - it epitomises what I detest about the voicing of most modern cartridges, and as Dave says, it takes the blandness of a stock RB300 to nullify its forensic excesses!

I can well believe that the 900IGC is a nice sounding cartridge, as it still comes from an era when manufacturers voiced cartridges by not sacrificing musicality to obtain a falsely 'pumped up' sound, which to some sounds superficially impressive - for five minutes, anyway!!

Whether or not I'll prefer it to the 800, as you say, only listening will tell, so I look forward to our future sesh :cool:

Marco.

Marco

31-03-2011, 13:38

Ok guys, a small update on proceedings......

One of the original Goldring styli has arrived, along with the 3g headshell weight from Analogue Seduction, and I've been having a bit of a play. I don't have a microscope, but with the naked eye, it still looks nicely sharp and pointy, and when used, sonically, I can detect little, if any, significant signs of wear. So in that respect, I've won a watch! :)

The original stylus is, sonically, a rather more refined beast (DSJR was correct in that respect - nice one, Dave!) than the modern replacement I had been using. It's not a 'night & day' difference, as one would expect, but it does raise the bar to a higher level again by tidying up a slight raggedness and adding a soupçon of 'polish' and refinement, giving upper frequencies a 'creamier' quality, without the loss of any definition or sparkle.

Bass, interestingly, goes even deeper now (not that it was lacking in any way before), but it hits harder and yet still has that infectious bouncy and rhythmic quality to it, which is really addictive, and that I associate in particular with the DL-103, when optimally partnered and set-up. Detail retrieval has also gone up a notch or two.

I've now fitted the 3g headshell weight to my AT LT-12, giving an overall mass of 15g at the headshell end of the Jelco, which the low-compliance G800 positively LOVES, and together with this and the addition of the heavy Jelco counterweight balance, I feel that I've now got the effective mass of the tonearm spot on.

I can't stress this enough: a high-mass tonearm is absolutely essential in order to hear what this cartridge is TRULY capable of, otherwise you will only hear a fraction of its potential, and perhaps rather foolishly, even dismiss is completely!

The original Goldring stylus also (as DSJR correctly said) is right at the top of its usable range at 2.7g (modern replacement styli for some reason must allow for higher tracking forces), and the cartridge sounded distinctly 'squashed' with that level of VTF, so I backed it off to 2.5g, which is now spot on. Anti-skate is thus set identically.

I'm looking forward to trying the other original stylus, when it arrives, to see if there's any difference, and if I can obtain any further improvement. Interestingly, this original stylus is a yellowy cream colour, and the one that's coming is bright white, both with 'Goldring' written on the front. Would anyone know if that means anything, such as one of them perhaps being an earlier version?

Anyway, now that I've got the effective mass spot on, and fitted an original stylus, the sound I'm getting from the G800 is, quite frankly, astonishingly good: I'd say that in terms of the overall quality of its music-making, it's as good as or better than any modern cartridge up to around £500, perhaps more. It's so good, in fact, that I wouldn't hesitate to put it up against any of the current Nagaoka MMs (which are themselves superb) - yes even the MP500 at some £630!

It is my intention to demonstrate the G800 at next year's Scalford Hall event to show just how good some vintage cartridges can sound in a modern system. I'm expecting more than a few raised eyebrows!! :eyebrows:

It certainly, in my opinion, outperforms any of the current Goldring range (or Audio Technicas), unless you happen to get off on that thin-toned, rather forward and clinical, treble-emphasised sound, so many of today's cartridges produce.

For those who love the 'BBC broadcast sound', as it was in its heyday, you simply must find a G800 with an original stylus, pop it on a high-mass pick-up arm, on a nice idler or direct-drive T/T, replay it through a good system, and then sit back and revel in audio nirvana!! I'll return later with some updated pics, showing the G800 fitted with its new stylus.

I've also discovered something else recently which has proved to be a bit of a revelation...... All will be revealed in due course in a separate thread in Strokes of Genius, so look out for that one, particularly modded Techy users! ;)

Ok, I must go off and do some work now.... Laters! :cool:

Marco.

DSJR

31-03-2011, 16:31

I don't have a review of the G800 (not till I get my scanner to HiFi dave's anyway...), but the 820 needed around 3 grammes to track correctly, so therefore 2.7g seems fine and safe, with 1.75g for the 800E being ok too I'll bet.

I don't know when mine are coming, so I'll try to get another A70/Lab 80 headshell first, as I reckon the arm on this deck may be even massier than the Goldring Lenco GL75/78 arms.. Now all the balls are in situ on the main and tonearm bearing races, the deck is running very sweetly indeed and apart from a gentle throb from a slight flat on the still-soft idler tyre, the rumble seems more than low enough for good quality reproduction and I'm loving this deck to bits - thanks Adam :)

Marco

01-04-2011, 10:50

Nice one, Dave. When you get a chance to try a G800, I'd be interested to know what you think :)

The G800, chez-moi, is now singing very sweetly indeed. I'm so glad you told me about this cartridge!

Meanwhile, here's a few updated pics, showing the new stylus, the headshell now fitted with a 3g suppliment weight, and something else that's new........... ;)

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3038/img0461k.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/263/img0460bc.jpg

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/5971/img0463f.jpg

Rock and roll, daddy-o! :gig:

Marco.

Rare Bird

02-04-2011, 15:37

Brilliant you just need a new deck now :lolsign:

Marco

02-04-2011, 15:55

:lolsign:

The sweep arm's on its way soon, too! ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave

02-04-2011, 16:37

:lolsign:

The sweep arm's on its way soon, too! ;)

Marco.

Electronic or Hydraulic ?

Marco

02-04-2011, 18:14

hifi_dave

02-04-2011, 18:42

Michell/Transcriptor Hydraulic or Electronic.

Rare Bird

02-04-2011, 18:44

:lolsign:

The sweep arm's on its way soon, too! ;)

Marco.

You won it? Awesome,

Dave: Transrotor

Barry

02-04-2011, 19:14

Lol.... Eh? :scratch:

One like this, matey, to brush me fuzzies:

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/6543/kgrhqeokpwe1q0fg0g7bniq.jpg (http://img855.imageshack.us/i/kgrhqeokpwe1q0fg0g7bniq.jpg/)

What were you thinking of? :lol:

Marco.

Trust the bristles are soft enough so they won't drive you round the bend trying to 'play' the record! Gave up using a 'Dust Bug' decades ago, as you could hear a very quiet but distorted playback of the record. And highly annoying it was too!

Regards

hifi_dave

02-04-2011, 19:25

No, it doesn't do the Dust Bug thing, you can't hear it but it also doesn't really pick up any dust. Who cares though ? It's such a lovely thing.

The stylus brush is also useless but looks great.

I thought Marco might have bought a Transcriptor/Michell deck and not just the brush..:rolleyes:

Marco

02-04-2011, 19:27

You won it?

Not yet, but I will do! ;)

Barry,

I'm told that the bristles are as soft as the hair on Tabatha's 'nest' :eyebrows:

Marco.

Marco

02-04-2011, 19:35

No, it doesn't do the Dust Bug thing, you can't hear it but it also doesn't really pick up any dust. Who cares though ? It's such a lovely thing.

Indeed - and that's mainly the point! Along with the vintage Michell clamp, it'll add a retro touch to the Techy :)

The stylus brush is also useless but looks great.

I've love to find one of those!

I thought Marco might have bought a Transcriptor/Michell deck and not just the brush..:rolleyes:

I'd love a Transcriptor, as it's undoubtedly one of the most gorgeous creations known to man, but it would only be for an ornament ;)

Marco.

hifi_dave

02-04-2011, 19:40

Well, when you have the Sweep Arm and the Stylus Brush, you need a set of their scales to get a full hand.

By the way, the brushes are made from Squirrel hair and are very soft indeed, second only to Sable IMO.:trust:

Marco

03-04-2011, 17:51

Just won it.... That's the first one I've seen go for less than £60! :)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250793569722

Marco.

Rare Bird

04-04-2011, 06:03

Brilliant i knew Germany would be the ticket

Marco

04-04-2011, 09:40

Yup, and I was fed up losing out on the buggers I was bidding on here! Thanks for the tip, dude :)

It should arrive by the end of the week, so I'll take some pics. It should make the Techy look a little more quirky :eyebrows:

Marco.

Rare Bird

04-04-2011, 09:43

I don't think you could use the Styli brush as that needs bolting to the deck, your ok with that sweep arm as it has a weighted base that could, if you want be secured with a bit of two sided but should be fine on it's own

Marco

04-04-2011, 10:09

Yeah, dude, I think you're right - the stylus brush is probably a step too far. You see, I have a similar problem to you with (some) hi-fi kit, only kind of the other way round.... :eyebrows:

Generally, I love the look of vintage T/Ts, but much prefer the sound of the modded Techy, so 'retrofying' it a little gives me *some* of what I love about the looks of vintage gear, whilst retaining the (to me) superior sonic performance of the Techy.

It's as near to a 'win-win' in that sense as I'm likely to get. If someone could build a T/T that looked as gorgeous as the Transcriptor, but sounded as good as my modded Techy, I'd snap it up in a shot!! ;)

The 'famous' scene from 'A Clockwork Orange':

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5393/clockworkorange.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/clockworkorange.jpg/)

:)

Marco.

DSJR

04-04-2011, 17:00

I've just put an ole Shure V15IV with good original stylus into the Lab 80... The later V15's seemed to have a lower compliance and the damper/brush on the front means one can use tractor like arms like the Garrard one with no stability issues. Sounds good actually and better by far than the M55E did-does.

Now, finding old styli for these old timers is a nightmare, but according to luminaries on the Lenco forum, one can get a good original stylus and have Expert Styli re-tip it with a decent modern elliptical or Paratrace diamond. It all depends on the condition of the rubberised suspension.

Barry

05-04-2011, 00:12

Marco

05-04-2011, 00:28

Barry

05-04-2011, 00:42

Indeed, dude. I'm reading it now! ;)

Some of the vintage B&O kit was actually very good. It wasn't like the shite they make now for corpulent 'key-jangler' types with a penchant for slurping Cristal and taking package holidays in Tenerife :rolleyes:

Marco.

Agreed! I have a B&O 1700 tuner, bought purely for it's looks. Not only does it look gorgeous but it sounds very good as well; somewhere between a Leak Troughline and a Quad FM3, so no slouch!

Beobloke

05-04-2011, 10:14

Some of the vintage B&O kit was actually very good. It wasn't like the shite they make now for corpulent 'key-jangler' types with a penchant for slurping Cristal and taking package holidays in Tenerife :rolleyes:

Marco.

:steam: :mental: :upyours:

Adam (who has never tried Cristal and never been to Tenerife but has more than a few choice items of modern B&O!)

Marco

05-04-2011, 10:34

Ha - I knew there'd be some daftee here who bought the current stuff! :lolsign:

Marco.

P.S Well seen you know how to spell 'Cristal' (now amended accordingly)! :ner: :lol:

DSJR

05-04-2011, 17:14

Old B&O was genuinely good and I fondly remember the Beolab 5000 integrated amp (as suggested in the pic) as happily driving some Linn Sara's to a very high standard. Continental gear had to drive a compulsory 4 Ohm load back then (DIN standard?) so the power supplies had to be up to it. Tuners designed there also had to be sensitive and selective too and B&O and Tandberg (I'm sure there are other greats too) seemed to do a wonderful job that the old UK tuners couldn't get anywhere near.

Actually Marco, a fettled 'Lab 5000 would be an excellent match to the Ditton 66's in one of your many available rooms should your proposed move take place...:) A fully serviced 'Gram 3000 with SP12 pickup (or an extremely rare Beogram 3000 with TD124!) would set it off nicely.

DSJR

11-04-2011, 17:32

I believe those Goodmans Minimax's were designed, at least in part, by ATC's Billy Woodman, who also "did" the Gale 401's I believe.

I have another cheapo memory-flood on the back burner and just missed some last week ;)

[EDIT] I understand I was in error with the above comments. The Goodmans were of course the MAXIMS from the late 60's, the Minimax's being the Hungarian babies from a few years later.

I also understand from Richard Dunn that Ira Gale himself designed the 401 speakers, so apologies to all for the mis-information :doh:

Rare Bird

15-04-2011, 14:10

Get a Transcriptor T/T Marco and you'll be obliged to buy some B&O electronics to go with it (see the photo)! :)

Those B&O's are Beolab '5000' Amplifier & Beomaster '5000' Tuner

DSJR

15-04-2011, 14:30

Them's the ones and there's a Dutch? site dedicated to restoring them :)

Barry

15-04-2011, 14:36

Those B&O's are Beolab '5000' Amplifier & Beomaster '5000' Tuner

Don't they look just gorgeous? :stalks: And, from what I remember, didn't sound too bad either.

Rare Bird

15-04-2011, 14:39

They are nice, my fav B&O's

kininigin

25-05-2011, 15:51

The original stylus is, sonically, a rather more refined beast (DSJR was correct in that respect - nice one, Dave!) than the modern replacement I had been using. It's not a 'night & day' difference, as one would expect, but it does raise the bar to a higher level again by tidying up a slight raggedness and adding a soupçon of 'polish' and refinement, giving upper frequencies a 'creamier' quality, without the loss of any definition or sparkle.

Bass, interestingly, goes even deeper now (not that it was lacking in any way before), but it hits harder and yet still has that infectious bouncy and rhythmic quality to it, which is really addictive, and that I associate in particular with the DL-103, when optimally partnered and set-up. Detail retrieval has also gone up a notch or two.

noticed this thread a few days ago and after marco's description of the cart,i thought i would give it a try as im looking for a new cart and this could possibly fit the bill and for a cheap price.

I have obtained a G800 cart,cost £11,but cannot find any nos styli,and the one that came with it must be worn as the HF sound really bad and can take the fillings out your teeth.

Anyone know where i can obtain a nos or should i just get the modern replacement?

Marco

25-05-2011, 17:23

spendorman

25-05-2011, 17:50

When I started selling hifi, the bog-standard cheap as chips system was Garrard SP25, Goldring G800, Amstrad 8000 and Wharfedale Dentons. All items equally "cheap and cheerful"!

SP25 with G800 in my loft. In fact there may be several SP25's

spendorman

25-05-2011, 17:54

Agreed! I have a B&O 1700 tuner, bought purely for it's looks. Not only does it look gorgeous but it sounds very good as well; somewhere between a Leak Troughline and a Quad FM3, so no slouch!

The matching amp, Beolab 1700 is very nice too, not a powerhouse, but great sounding. I read a review of that today. I won't say where!

DSJR

25-05-2011, 17:57

spendorman

25-05-2011, 18:04

I remember the 'lab 1700 fondly too, as well as the tuner. These may well take a temporary hike in price now we've mentioned them, so look out for the receiver (I forget which one but it's black fronted in identical styling) as it will be ignored. Use the tape output for the tuner and obviously the amp inputs are there with easy 4 Ohm load driving ability. low power is it's only downfall today, plus suspect capacitors. the output stage was easily blown as well I remember.

I have two Beolab 1700's, In this room (which is not small) it still drives LS3/5a fine.

The output capacitors of one amp are bulging, in the process of replacing them.

The other 1700, at some stage has had two output devices replaced in the past. I believe that they are power Darlington's.

DSJR

25-05-2011, 18:08

They are :) We did loads, usually in the music centre which used much the same amp, but I forget the numbers now.

spendorman

25-05-2011, 18:12

They are :) We did loads, usually in the music centre which used much the same amp, but I forget the numbers now.

Me too, but inside each Beomaster 1700 and Beolab 1700 is a small envelope, with a circuit diagram in it. A nice touch.

MartinT

25-05-2011, 18:20

I give you the old BBC war horse: the Goldring G800, purloined from eBay for the grand total of £3.70 (exc stylus)....

Nice one, Marco. That was my very first cartridge, running on a Connoisseur BD-1 with SME3009-II. It did me well but then I stupidly swapped it for a Shure M55E, which I thought was not as musical.

DSJR

25-05-2011, 18:24

Should have bought the Super-E stylus ;)

spendorman

25-05-2011, 18:30

From memory, the G800 was pretty reasonable, led me to purchase the Goldring Epic cartridge, did not like this one.

kininigin

25-05-2011, 19:44

Hi Darren,

I'd just go for one of these, until a NOS stylus pops up: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stylus-Goldring-G800-D110-D110SR-/300546865432?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f9fd3918

What headshell are you using with the G800 - just the stock Jelco one? If so, you'll need to add some more mass :)

Marco.

Hi marco,

ok i'll get a modern replacement till a nos shows up.

I've got the at ls-12 which I got from you,but I think it's the same weight as the jelco.I'm sure I have a headshell weight/spacer with an old technics headshell.I'm not sure how heavy it is,probaly between 2g-4g I suspect.

Marco

25-05-2011, 22:18

kininigin

26-05-2011, 09:27

Hi Darren,

Don't use those, as they're ferrous, and so not ideal for this particular job. My advice would be to buy this stainless steel headshell weight, from VPI:

http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/VPI_Stainless_Steel_3g_Headshell_Weight_VPI-SSHW

It's what I use with my G800, and it the holes should align nicely with those under your LS-12. That (along with a new stylus) will make your G800 sing! :)

Marco.

P.S Also, remember to track the G800 at around 2.5g (with a conical stylus), or even a bit more if it sounds better for it - you'll still be well within the recommended range.

Right i see the technics weight does look a bit 'flimsy' really,i assume ferrous means more resonant?

Martin t had suggested a denon DL-110 to try but i have just spent £1k on a snowboard course in austria(which i passed btw :yay:) so am a little skint atm,so will have to wait awhile for that.

Have you heard a DL-110? and if so,how does it compare to the G800 when set up optimaly?

DSJR

26-05-2011, 17:38

kininigin

26-05-2011, 20:03

"Ferrous means magnetic" I suspect Marco meant. The G800 and 820 were "induced magnet" types, which meant that instead of there being a small magnet behind the stylus waggling around, there was some easily magnetised material instead. A permanent magnet was positioned above the stylus assembly to magnetise this material. ADC used similar techniques in their classic 1960's and 1970's series of cartridges, the magnets being fixed in the body in the 26 and relatives, but actually in the stylus assembly in the QLM/VLM/XLM and ZLM models.

G800E test from Gramophone - note the 5db treble suckout...

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/April%201968/141/843627/#header-logo

gotcha,you can allways count on dave to fill the gaps in one's lack of knowledge :)

Not sure what 5db treble suckout means in practical terms though.Still new to all this really.

It was easy when i used to dj,buy a couple of concord carts,install,then bang 'choons' out till new carts were needed.

DSJR

26-05-2011, 21:41

A treble suckout usually means a big, beefy sound with a "gentle" reproduction of cymbals etc. I found. I'm still waiting for my freebies so I can't verify these feelings in today's sensibilities.

Dominic Harper

12-06-2011, 11:34

Just spotted this thread by accident. I have read most of the posts and have to agree with you Marco on the G800's qualities.
I recently re-tipped one for a customer as a bit on an experiment. New tip was a standard spherical, Tested on my Garrard 301/sme 3009 imp fixed headshell
and was duley gobsmacked at the results. I use a Supex 900super in Audiomods arm daily, but I may well get a G800 now. No suckout whatsoever, and firm bass with midrange to die for. Plenty of subtlety and expression, no sibilance which was not expected. All in all extremely satisfying.
Some pics of the one I worked on
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/G800%20and%20project%20arm/DSC01638.jpg
New tip under microscope
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/G800%20and%20project%20arm/DSC01636.jpg
Finished G800
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/G800%20and%20project%20arm/DSC01635.jpg

Dom

kininigin

12-06-2011, 12:15

Just spotted this thread by accident. I have read most of the posts and have to agree with you Marco on the G800's qualities.
I recently re-tipped one for a customer as a bit on an experiment. New tip was a standard spherical, Tested on my Garrard 301/sme 3009 imp fixed headshell
and was duley gobsmacked at the results. I use a Supex 900super in Audiomods arm daily, but I may well get a G800 now. No suckout whatsoever, and firm bass with midrange to die for. Plenty of subtlety and expression, no sibilance which was not expected. All in all extremely satisfying.
Some pics of the one I worked on
Dom

Hi dom,welcom to the forum :)

I've been looking for a nos stylus for one of these carts but to no avail as of yet,but after reading your post i was wondering if you could give some info on retipping a modern G800 stylus,would it be worth it? how much?

If it's not worth it i'll just get a modern one and see how that goes.Just have to wait on a auction on ebay for some records i have been after for years and don't want to miss out on them so all funds will concentrate on that.

Dominic Harper

12-06-2011, 12:23

Hi Darren, I have been on this forum for some time, but don't post as often as I should!
I have not listened to the ne styli so can't comment on those. They are available for around £15 and my re-tip will cost £60 to the existing cantivever if still usable. At least this will keep the original spec as the new replacements will no doubt alter the characteristics.
The original suspension should be fine, so no worries there.
My email is northwestanalogue@hotmail.co.uk
if you need to get in touch.
Dom

kininigin

12-06-2011, 12:34

Dominic Harper

12-06-2011, 12:40

Hi, not on the cart that was tipped. I had 3 G800's to play around with. One was dead on one channel( cart in bits) and two with diamonds missing.
The one in bits will be used for experiments as I wish to re-wind the coils and create a low output version along the lines of the Grado statements.

kininigin

12-06-2011, 12:49

Marco

12-06-2011, 14:15

Hi Dom,

New tip was a standard spherical, Tested on my Garrard 301/sme 3009 imp fixed headshell
and was duley gobsmacked at the results. I use a Supex 900super in Audiomods arm daily, but I may well get a G800 now. No suckout whatsoever, and firm bass with midrange to die for. Plenty of subtlety and expression, no sibilance which was not expected. All in all extremely satisfying.

Nice one - I'm glad you like it. In the right (high-mass) tonearm, and with a quality (open and detailed sounding phonostage, not the syrupy, euphonic kind), the G800 is laughably good, particularly with a NOS stylus.

I picked up an early, totally mint NOS one on eBay last month, but haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. I will do though, later this week, and will report here :cool:

Marco.

Dominic Harper

12-06-2011, 15:02

Hi Marco, compliance figures can be very missleading. I found the Goldring to work perfectly well in the SME, actually prefering it to the Supex I currently use in an Audiomods arm. I have another G800 body and damaged stylus here I will re-tip for myself and install in the Audiomods. I will also report back when listening tests start.
Funnily enough I had a G800 many years ago mounted in a Hadcock unipivot. Phono stage was medeocre at the time, so this combination didn't inspire me.
This cart def needs a top phono stage for best results.
Dom

chelsea

12-06-2011, 15:29

I have a g800 body but the cantiliver was snapped clean off when i got it.

Any advice on a cheapo replacement stylus.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew

12-06-2011, 15:32

Back in the very early 70's I was working for G.W Smith & Co who was one of the constituent parts of what became the Audiotronic group that traded as Laskys. I remember every Saturday at 257 Tottenham Court road we would sell about 100 TT packages that consisted of a Garrards SP25 in a Alan Sugar plinth and cover with a Goldring G800. AND every Monday morning there would be at least 10 of them back having shed their stylus as soon as they were asked to play a record, so I was very jaundiced towards them. I preferred the Shures, but on much later listening realised they were probably musically better than the Shures. Apart from the M3D which has a unique boogy character that is quite addictive. Interestingly when they tried to go up market with the G800 super E to try and compete with the likes of the Shure V15 (everyone aspired to SME / Shure V15) it didn't really work, the low compliance with a high mass body made the thing warbly and unstable.

Richard

kininigin

12-06-2011, 15:53

I have a g800 body but the cantiliver was snapped clean off when i got it.

Any advice on a cheapo replacement stylus.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REPLACEMENT-GOLDRING-G800-STYLUS-/300563410624?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45faf9aec0

Can someone help me out,before i buy a replacement stylus i just want to check i have set everything up correctly.

Symptoms im having is extremly sibilant treble which stands out like a sore thumb.

Im using the baerwald alignment,2.5 tracking,use a bubble spirit to check azimuth which is spot on.

Have i missed anything? Looking at the stylus tip by eye it looks ok but im not sure.Is sibalance a sign of a worn or damaged needle?

Marco

12-06-2011, 15:54

Hi Dom,

That's interesting and noted, although it's different from my own experience. I use mine on a Jelco SA-750, which with its original headshell, has an effective mass of around 16g.

I'm not a big fan of the stock headshell, considering it as somewhat flimsy and not in keeping with the superb engineering of the rest of the tonearm, and so have fitted a NOS Audio Technica LT-12 (12g mass, similar to the Jelco headshell), although it's made from solid magnesium - one of the best materials from which to make a headshell, IMO.

The (spherical-tipped) G800 worked very well in the LT-12, but then I thought I'd try adding a little more mass, by fitting a 3g VPI headshell weight: http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/VPI_Stainless_Steel_3g_Headshell_Weight_VPI-SSHW, and after doing so, the sound improved markedly, adding more weight and authority and removing a slight tendency to sibilance, with some recordings.

Therefore based on that experiment, it would *seem* that the G800 likes some added mass. However, that was with it fitted on my Jelco. I suspect that your SME would 'grip' it better, given the excellent damping qualities of the SME's all-magnesium arm-tube (it's a V you've got, yeah?), which may explain why it works fine on that, without any further added mass.

Anyway, if that's the case, it will mean that the G800 is more accessible to people with 'normal' tonearms, which is good news :)

I suspect that the Hadcock you used to use with it, would've been a less than ideal match, even taking into consideration the poor quality phono stage you had at the time.

One area where massive advances have been made since the days of the G800, are in terms of the quality of phono stages and preamps which are available now, and so for that reason, I doubt that anyone who used a G800 first time round would've heard its true qualities.

I love quality vintage gear, but I've yet to hear a vintage preamp or phono stage that gets near to even some of the better budget ones these days! They were generally way too noisy and/or over-complicated.

My view is that good vintage cartridges had superb quality generators (far better than most of what is produced today), and so with a sympathetic stylus re-tip, or the use of mint NOS examples, fitted to a quality tonearm, and through a quality modern preamp and phono stage, the results can be a real ear-opener, producing a level of musicality which makes most of today's cartridges sound rather 'frigid and forensic', and distinctly 'hi-fi', in comparison.

Anyway, hopefully your revelations will create some more G800 fans on here! :cool:

Marco.

chelsea

12-06-2011, 15:58

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/REPLACEMENT-GOLDRING-G800-STYLUS-/300563410624?pt=Turntable_Parts_Accessories&hash=item45faf9aec0

Can someone help me out,before i buy a replacement stylus i just want to check i have set everything up correctly.

Symtoms im having is extremly sibalant treble which stands out like a sore thumb.

Im using the baerwald alignment,2.5 tracking,use a bubble spirit to check azimuth which is spot on.

Have i missed anything? Looking at the stylus tip by eye it looks ok but im not sure.Is sibalance a sign of a worn or damaged needle?

cheers.

Dominic Harper

12-06-2011, 16:21

Dr Bunsen Honeydew

12-06-2011, 16:24

Marco

12-06-2011, 16:29

Back in the very early 70's I was working for G.W Smith & Co who was one of the constituent parts of what became the Audiotronic group that traded as Laskys. I remember every Saturday at 257 Tottenham Court road we would sell about 100 TT packages that consisted of a Garrards SP25 in a Alan Sugar plinth and cover with a Goldring G800. AND every Monday morning there would be at least 10 of them back having shed their stylus as soon as they were asked to play a record, so I was very jaundiced towards them.

I'm not surprised, Richard, as that's precisely what happened to one of the NOS ones I bought!

Interestingly when they tried to go up market with the G800 super E to try and compete with the likes of the Shure V15 (everyone aspired to SME / Shure V15) it didn't really work, the low compliance with a high mass body made the thing warbly and unstable.

I haven't tried the 'E', but the more I hear about it from those that have, the more I'm almost certain that it wouldn't be my cup of tea.

Marco.

Rare Bird

12-06-2011, 16:42

I'm amazed people are hankering over the 'G800' & not the 'G900's !

Dr Bunsen Honeydew

12-06-2011, 16:43

I haven't tried the 'E', but the more I hear about it from those that have, the more I'm almost certain that it wouldn't be my cup of tea.

Marco.
The E was just an eliptical G800, the G800 super E was a different beast. And the G900 was horrible, they lost it at that point.

This has a copy of a super E review from about 1969 and other interesting things http://www.saturn-sound.com/history/hi-fi,%20reviews.htm

kininigin

12-06-2011, 16:51

A worn stylus and or azimuth issues will cause sibilance. It is very tricky to inspect a stylus for azimuth without a microscope. There are alot of old and new styli incorrectly aligned, and even if you check arm azimuth, this is no indication stylus is correct.

Im leaning towards a worn stylus rather than incorrect azimuth.

I might sell my nagaoka and send you my G800 for a retip,i'll wait till you do yours though and see what you think of it in your system.

chris@panteg

12-06-2011, 16:52

Dominic Harper

12-06-2011, 17:11

Darren, I have tried the re-tipped G800 on my Garrard 301/sme combo and was stunned at what I heard. Bear in mind, that was a spherical tip! no sibilance whatsoever, tracking about 2.5g.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew

12-06-2011, 17:12

Hi Richard

I'm almost 100% certain my Dad had one of these in his radiogram, from about 1970, did it have a flip over stylus for 78's ?
Yup! you can still buy stylus for them at ebay. They were just far better beasts than the crystals like Ronette and BSR. They could actually play music in a very characterful way

chris@panteg

12-06-2011, 17:41

Yup! you can still buy stylus for them at ebay. They were just far better beasts than the crystals like Ronette and BSR. They could actually play music in a very characterful way

Yes and its where my music loving journey started i guess , listening to my Dad's ' Wagner , Beethoven and Tchaikovsky records :)

The Gram had a Bush reciever as i remember it and of course the Garrard autochanger.

I remember playing some Genesis to him ! He listened to all of it and then said to me :hmm: its a bit of an acquired taste :eyebrows: and too repetitive , bless him :)

DSJR

12-06-2011, 18:39

While we are going on about old things, I would be fascinated by anyone trying a Sonotone 9tahc. It is ceramic so you will have to keep the volume down as it has loads of output, far more than a moving magnet.

Now these were largely only fitted to radiograms and record players and the Garrard 1025tc autochanger, but I remember them having zonking dynamics if a little limited in HF and not exactly flat across the frequency band, some would say full of character.

Richard

Got it in one Richard. Been there and doing it now :)

The trouble now, is that tracking is marginal on later vinyl cuts and, more impotantly, the rubberised material used to couple the cantilever to the ceramic elements can harden up with the decades' passing.

I have very fond memories of the Acos 104, a high compliance (for this type) ceramic of very low mass and 2 - 3g tracking. The new-old-stock one I bought last year has significantly stiffened up and although incredibly "direct" sounding, the sweetness has gone that I remembered. The previous top model GP96-1 I also have is as smooth as ever, the coupling element made of a whitish coloured material which hasn't gone off. The sound is smooth but so dull and bland without eq.

Back to the 9TAHC. The very early ones have a more flexible coupler and the ones I've seen appear to be set far back on the cantilever, allowing more flexibility to the stylus. Perfect in a Garrard 3000 autochanger I remember. Sadly, later ones and all the current Jap copies, are low tracking ability groove-wreckers IMO, as is the copy of the Sonotone 3559/garrard KS41C that was another goodie when it was new.

How do these compare to modern cheap magnetics, even if loading is good (I have a simple little J-FET 1.5M line buffer I made), not a hope in heck I'm afraid, as in my opinion, an AT95E is far better.. Doesn't stop me playing though :)

http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonopc.htm

spendorman

12-06-2011, 18:55

I think there was a dual turnover LP stylus as against the 78/LP turnover for the Sonotone 9TAHC.

I think that I have a Decca Deram in the loft, in a Garrard SP25. Also a G800 in another SP25

SPS

12-06-2011, 21:53

Dominic Harper

28-06-2011, 15:05

Some more news on the upgraded G800.
I have replaced the original cantilever with one of my hand made nickel silver jobbies, and fitted an elliptical tip 0.0007 x 0.0002.
This has really put this cart amongst the pigeons.
The Supex is history. This thing does bass and mid-range like nothing else.
Forget MC's. Even the treble is lovely.
It can also conjure up a very believable 3D image.
Tracking is dead on 2.5g and I have yet to work out compliance.
It works a treat in my SME 3009 Imp and Audiomods arms. I'm guessing a heavy arm is not needed.
With the new cantilever/tip, this cartridge pulls way more out of the grooves than anything else I have used, and I have used some very nice carts.

The Nickel cantilever is playing a major role here. I have re-tipped two stylus assemblies. One retained the ally cantilever, the other had the new cantilever.
Both have identical tips fitted. The ally cantilever is a fine performer and achieves about 70% of what the new cantilever can do.

I know super stiff materials such as Boron are favored, but they are mega stiff and as such will transmit every thing directly to the suspension/coils.
Nickel silver rod is a great alternative, being stiffer than alloy tube but not as stiff as Boron.

I will experiment further by rewinding the coils for a low impedance version.
This should be interesting and could take this cart into another league.

Cart was tested with both a John Linsley Hood stage, and a Yaqin tube stage.
Best results were with the tube stage.

New cantilever and tip
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/cart%20repairs%20and%20puck/DSC01730.jpg

under microscope
http://i990.photobucket.com/albums/af30/hifimaster/cart%20repairs%20and%20puck/DSC01725.jpg

Marco

28-06-2011, 17:09

Hi Dominic,

This is very interesting stuff!! It just shows you the quality of the generator. You can hear its greatness, even with a good original NOS stylus.

I will probably have my G800 done, too. What cost is involved in fitting the nickel cantilever and tip? :)

Marco.

DSJR

28-06-2011, 20:15

I have one here at home - an original good-diamond stylus in a G800. Sounds just as I and hifi dave remember it tracking at 2.75g. Boppier in the bass than an AT95E, dull on "ssshhhh" sounds and a one-note tinkle further up to top it off - and don't give me the cr@p about the deck not being good enough (I have these in the Techie) or the amp or anything else for that matter. A bloody M55E creams it handsomely and as for the possibility of a Jico M75 SAS, let alone a V15 SAS, do leave off :D I've also compared it with a VMS30, which has a warm soft bass but a lovely treble in comparison and also a great Supex 900E in standard form which is head and shoulder above all of them and this one tracks well too at 1.8g...

No, the G800 was a good try for an induced magnet type back in 1968, but ADC overtook Goldring quite handsomely and I think a vintage 220XE or similar would be far better.

I still have the promise of a G800E or two and look forward to hearing this in comparison. Thing is Dominic, you'd charge a small fortune for doing up the G800 needle like yours and I personally don't think the generator is up to it, as laminated pole pieces and such-like hadn't been developed as yet ;)

Dominic Harper

28-06-2011, 20:37

Wow, where did that come from?
As someone who repairs cartridges, tonearms, turntables, designs plinths etc etc, I think I have an understanding of what I'm talking about.
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
I do not however charge a small fortune for this upgrade. That is your assumption and not fact.
The generator certainly is up to the job, quite unlike many other cart I have worked on and has possibilities for further work.
The re-worked cartridge will be great value for money, and that's what I am all about.

Marco

28-06-2011, 21:50

Hi Dave,

All I can say is that you're entitled to your opinion, which I of course vehemently disagree with, although I have no doubt that you're hearing what you're hearing.

I'll ask you one question, though.......

Do you honestly think that if I were hearing the same with the G800 as you, that I'd be raving about it?? You should know me by now and the standards I strive for with sound quality.

Therefore, the HUGE dichotomy in our respective experiences with the G800 I think goes way beyond a mere difference in our tastes......... There MUST therefore be another explanation!

Think about it ;)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

28-06-2011, 22:01

You have a PM by the way Marco!

Rare Bird

28-06-2011, 22:06

I think Dave could possibly prefer the 'G900IGC' like i did.Superb tracking..All people have different ears/preferences tho.

:sofa:

Marco

28-06-2011, 22:13

You have a PM by the way Marco!

Got it, Dominic. I'll be swinging some business your way in due course :)

Marco.

Dominic Harper

28-06-2011, 22:14

Okey Dokey

Marco

28-06-2011, 22:16

I think Dave could possibly prefer the 'G900IGC' like i did.Superb tracking..All people have different ears/preferences tho.

:sofa:

Lol - defo, mate, and that may indeed be the case.

But when one person sees black and the other white (that level of difference), there's ususally an explanation which goes beyond different ears and preferences.

If Dave lived nearer, we could probably put all this to bed in one listening session! :cool:

Marco.

Dominic Harper

28-06-2011, 22:39

Dave did say the G800 was tracking at 2.75. This is simply too high and would have sat on the dynamics. 2.5 is optimal for the original conical version. The 'E'
version would be even lower.
Treble will also break up with overloaded suspension, which would also explain his findings.
I don't post things for the sake of it. :eyebrows:

DSJR

29-06-2011, 06:48

kininigin

29-06-2011, 09:31

hi dom,haven't forgot about sending you my cart for re-tip just been busy lately,will probaly send in the next couple of weeks,:cool:

Dominic Harper

29-06-2011, 09:57

No problem Darren.just send me an email to let me know when your sending it:)

DSJR

29-06-2011, 16:34

Just had another tweak-up and listen to the G800 as I have it. I think I may have tamed the extreme treble a little and the tonal balance doesn't seem quite as "odd" as it did before. The main issue is now in the bass - track at 2.5g and it distorts (I'm playing a favourite old Seventh Wave album track "Only The Beginning" which was a classic Decca Gull Records pressing from the mid 70's (the very first cut of the forst 'Enid" LP is similar in sonics). Increase to 2.75 and it's much better. This track NEEDS an elliptical or fine-line tip to sound clean in the treble though, which could be due to groove wear by now. I'm sure there must be a G800E stylus around somewhere...

HOWEVER, and this is important, there are reports over the web about the terrible quality control on Goldring syli from this period, diamond chips falling off amd all sorts, so it may be better to get a Jico elliptical to start with and see how that sounds...

At least it's got me playing and thinking eh?

synsei

29-06-2011, 21:57

Hi Dom. I stopped following this thread for a while and now I've rediscovered it I'm wondering what little extra delights you might be able to coax out of my G900IGC? :)

Dominic Harper

29-06-2011, 22:02

Hi Dave, I can certainly have a look at it for you. I'm not familiar with the 900 so it will be good to see it in the flesh. Cantilever and tip replacement would be a logical step, or just fit a new tip to the original cantilever if you wish.
Drop me an email if you like.
Dom

Barry

29-06-2011, 22:12

2.5g causes sat on dynamics here and a sense of vagueness. I did try this - honest... I agree the 800E needs around 1.5 to 1.75g and the Super E around 1.25g..

I do indeed very much like the memories I have of the 900IGC..

I'd like to try a vintage 1.5 - 2g tracking big bodies ADC to see if my hunch is correct. I LOVE the XLM's I have, together with the ZLM and descendant Sonus Blue..

Dag nam it Dave!

That's one project I had in mind to do and report on AoS: my revisiting some fixed-coil cartridges of the '70s. Namely, the ADC 10E Mk. IV and 25/26. Also the Shure M55E and B&O SP6.

So much to do - so little time!

Regards

Marco

29-06-2011, 22:14

So many women, so little time? ;)

Marco.

Barry

29-06-2011, 23:32

So many women, so little time? ;)

Marco.

If only - if only! :eek:

DSJR

30-06-2011, 15:53

Dag nam it Dave!

That's one project I had in mind to do and report on AoS: my revisiting some fixed-coil cartridges of the '70s. Namely, the ADC 10E Mk. IV and 25/26. Also the Shure M55E and B&O SP6.

So much to do - so little time!

Regards

I have a 26 and it needs a negative mass arm to really become stable :scratch: This one is fitted with a new unused stylus too and tracking doesn't get better over 0.7g. Once stable as much as possible, tracing of sibillance is poor by modern standards and way inferior to the XLM II, III and Phase 4 I have. I believe the 10E-IV is one of the 25 versions? (the 25 came originally with three styli). I have a couple of mk1 XLM's too and these also need the lightest tonearms out there to work properly.

I had a VLM II but Alex had this with the SL150(0) he has. Slightly lower compliance and 1.25g tracking instead of .7 for the earlier delicate ones..

I have an M55E with Ed Saunders stylus. Sound isn't bad, but not as neutral as all the ADC's IMO. I do still think it's better in many ways to the G800, but again, sibillance tracking is marginal where my V15's and even one of the two Supex's are fine on the same record (the Supex is used on the SL1500).

I don't have a stylus for the SP6 (SP9 the best these days?) but do have a fully functiional SP12 and 14. the 14 is another bland one, but the 12 is a little bit special, as was the MMC20CL you covet. The SP12 tracks sublimely at 1 to 1.2g as clean as a whistle and with a very inviting sound overall, but again, the mid treble is severely recessed and that's a huge issue for me.

I'm beginning to think that either variable input loading is needed on phono stages as well as capacitance, or at least variable eq, as needed on old 78's and some other 1950's records.

MartinT

30-06-2011, 17:34

Wasn't the ADC 26 very expensive for its time? I seem to remember it being the priciest in one of the early Hi-Fi Choice books.

chelsea

23-07-2011, 22:13

What is the optimun weight for the g800?

Marco

24-07-2011, 08:06

Hi Stu,

Do you mean tracking weight? If so, it's 2.5g :)

Marco.

DSJR

24-07-2011, 08:40

I do keep returning to mine every so often and this sample definitely prefers 2.75g. They were a bit variable by all accounts, so it'll depend on your sample I think. prolonged listening (yes Marco, I've persevered) gives a good midrange, but my upstairs lashup misses the treble.

I've just bought a G820, possibly and hopefully a G820E (I don't think there was an "H" version) and look forward to trying this one out. the standard 820 was slaughtered in an early 'Choice yet the long demised "Super-E" version won a group test when it was launched.

chelsea

24-07-2011, 09:14

Hi Stu,

Do you mean tracking weight? If so, it's 2.5g :)

Marco.

Thanks marco.

Tea24

05-09-2011, 13:38

Just a little info I found on the G800 in the back of the Lenco GL75 instructions ( Dom Harper is doing up the Lenco for me at this moment - just waiting on one smalll bit). Some of you may have seen this already:

"GOLDRING G800 & G800E
For High Quality Amplifiers, these new magnetic stereo cartridges emplying the "free field" principle have an exceptionally wide and flat frequency response and excellent separation at all frequencies. G800-G800/H for slightly less sensitive amplifiers. G800/E (elliptical stylus). G800 Super E. Individually calibrated version for use at very low stylus pressures."

Printing date of booklet 1970.

What is/was the "free field" principle?

I have a G800 which came with the TT & am going to get a stylus for it to try with the new Jelco arm on this table.

Marco, if I use this with an 8.5 gram headshell with either a 2 or 4 gram weight added, will I need the Jelco heavy counterweight? Would add rather a lot to the cost!!

DSJR

05-09-2011, 18:02

Wasn't the ADC 26 very expensive for its time? I seem to remember it being the priciest in one of the early Hi-Fi Choice books.

It was very "Top End" at the time, this and the Empire 1000ZE/X costing far more than the Shure V15 II or III I remember, although by the time of the V15 III, the ADC XLM and Empire 2000Z series' had all but replaced them IIRC.

DSJR

05-09-2011, 18:04

What is/was the "free field" principle?

I think the "Free Field" term eventually became known as "Induced Magnet." Instead of a (then) comparatively heavy permanent magnet being hauled around by the stylus/cantilever behind the hinge point, the little tube behind the cantilever was a "magnetisable material," a magnet being mounted in the cartidge body above - in these Goldrings and ADC's at any rate. IIRC, current Ortofon "MM" types are also induced magnet, but the magnet is a tiny ring around the cantilever at the hinge point - I think.....

Currently getting re-acquainted with a Grado F1+ from the late 70's. Big, ballsy, good tracking and not over-refined like I remember the current Gold being, it's great and loves the massive Lab 80 tonearm :)

chelsea

09-09-2011, 11:44

Have a g800 now up and running.
Got the body off a deck from a car boot a few years ago and the stylus was mangled.

Just got a replacement stylus and have to say it sounds very good.
Bass is tight and well defined and detail is all there.

Other carts i have been using are ortofon mc range 10 and 15 and shure m75.
The ortofon are more upfront and have a cd quality about them.
I don't really want my tt to have cd quality as it seems a bit pointles so it's nice to try these old carts from the 70s/80s that can be had for next to nothing.

For a tenner it's an absolute bargain.
Well worth hunting one down.

Canetoad

01-10-2011, 14:51

Hi Dave,

Ah, thanks for the info. It's what I suspected, and rather proves my point that the Goldring *is* a quality cartridge, if the 800E and Super E were so highly regarded in their day.

It's the generator which is at the 'business end' of how a cartridge intrinsically sounds. The stylus type simply alters the final presentation, therefore which one is 'superior' will depend on how one prefers music reproduced, vis-à-vis the sonic signatures of conical vs. elliptical styli.

Me? I'll happily trade a (little) fine detail retrieval and treble extension for the 'boogie factor' and natural tonality of a nice conical tip.

Ok, that's interesting. You can solve something for me then: First of all, this is the stylus I'm using:

http://www.stylusplus.co.uk/stylus-for-goldring-g800-lp-cartridge-7231-p.asp

Observe where it says:

So, at 2.7g, I'm still well within the recommended range. However, it isn't an original G800 stylus, although it is a conical type :)

Now, going back to the G800H you mentioned, have a look here, and scroll down about a quarter of the way to where the D-110H and D-110E styli are shown:

http://www.adelcom.net/GoldringStylus1.htm

Could those be used with my G800 cartridge?

Interesting! I'll have a look at that. Meanwhile your answer to the above question would be useful - churz :cool:

Marco.

I have attached the instruction sheet I received with my G800 cartridge for anybody who has one. It states that the tracking force is between 1.5 and 3 grams for the original cartridge stylus.

:cool:

bogle111

01-10-2011, 15:17

Wasn't the ADC 26 very expensive for its time? I seem to remember it being the priciest in one of the early Hi-Fi Choice books.

The ADC 25 was the most expensive in their line-up. Came with two styli as well (conical & elliptical). Only ever sold 2 - were about £90 each. The 26 was a third cheaper. You could have bought 3 decca Blues then for that, and got change. B&O as well as ADC, Grado, Pickering, Empire and especially Ortofon were considered the better carts. then rather than Goldring800 E variants.

I know I shall probably get caned for this, but the G800 came with just about every SP25 sold in some quarters, until Shure caught on and did the 75-6 and 75EJ. The 800E wasn't so good a cart. and many considered the Super E too much for what it was. I still consider my G800 to be a millstone, or should I say milestone.

spendorman

01-10-2011, 18:19

I remember the G800 and G800H being sold, what is the difference?

In the loft is a Garrard SP25 with a G800, or possibly G800H

Rare Bird

01-10-2011, 19:22

I remember the G800 and G800H being sold, what is the difference?

'H' is the High output version

spendorman

01-10-2011, 19:24

'H' is the High output version

Thanks, now I remember!!

Are they marked H?

Rare Bird

01-10-2011, 19:32

More than likley a 'H' if it's on your 'SP25'..Whats colours the Styli?

spendorman

01-10-2011, 20:22

More than likley a 'H' if it's on your 'SP25'..Whats colours the Styli?

Not sure, it's in the loft, must have been there 30+years. Next time up there, will look. Think there may be two more SP25 up there as well.

DSJR

01-10-2011, 21:01

The H had a red coloured stylus and supposedly tracked half a gramme or so higher. The nearest I have to this is the replacement? G820 "DJ" which tracks at around 3g (mistracks at anything less than this), also has a red stylus assembly and has a pungent bass and no treble whatsoever and far less than the G800 on a bad day ;)

I've still yet to obtain the G800E's promised me but I still think a good "E" may just be the best of them all, although reports at the time indicate the diamond quality was variable, in which case a Jico may be the best option.

AlasdairB

30-01-2012, 21:12

Sorry to come to this thread a little late.
A while back, with help from my old friend Ivor Abelson, I played around with quite a few odd old cartridges mounted in a modern Rega RB250 tonearm. The Shure M3D was quite a surprise - a rich, stable, musical sound that I could happily have lived with indefinitely but Ivor wanted it back. The Rega RB100 (ancestor of current Regas) was also very impressive in many ways but hampered by dull tonal balance. I tried a Sonotone 9TAHC too - no prizes for refinement but a surprisingly good listen. If you want to experiment with ceramics, the one to try is the BSR SC12M - a more modern design that sounds better than the Sonotone and is still reasonably easy to find. This fades away a bit at the top but apart from this sounded pretty good and stayed in front line service for a few months before I went back to more modern (and respectable) devices. I also have a Goldring CS91E ceramic but haven't managed to get it working properly. The Connoisseur SCU1 may also be worth a listen if you can find one.
I hope this is helpful.

DSJR

31-01-2012, 11:18

Don't forget the 1M load that ceramics need as a minimum. Loads of info on the 9TA-HC as to load and response changes - the current copies are horrid if mine has anything to do with it.. I agree about the pleasant surprise that's the SC12M though :)

shane

31-01-2012, 12:26

Does anyone have any experience of the Decca Deram? I seem to remember it being thought of as the ultimate ceramic type.

Rare Bird

31-01-2012, 12:29

Always wanted one & the '300' speakers

hifi_dave

31-01-2012, 12:31

I enjoyed it back in the 1960's. It's major selling point was the low tip mass (0.6) and relatively low tracking weights. Like most Decca products, it was way ahead of the crowd.

I've got a couple stashed away somewhere but haven't tried one for donkey's.

Beobloke

31-01-2012, 12:47

Does anyone have any experience of the Decca Deram? I seem to remember it being thought of as the ultimate ceramic type.

Damn, I was hoping no-one would mention this, as the white bodied Deram is my absolute favourite ceramic and I was hoping to keep it under the radar!

It sounds great and its construction means that it behaves differently depending on what load it sees, so it can be plugged directly into an MM input, although it can be quite microphonic like this and for best results needs a proper ceramic input.

Rare Bird

31-01-2012, 12:50

Damn, I was hoping no-one would mention this, as the white bodied Deram is my absolute favourite ceramic and I was hoping to keep it under the radar!

It sounds great and its construction means that it behaves differently depending on what load it sees, so it can be plugged directly into an MM input, although it can be quite microphonic like this and for best results needs a proper ceramic input.

Your Ferrograph 'F307' has the perfect Ceramic input :eyebrows:

Isnt it just a pig when secrets get out. Luckily i have a few thats not come up yet :)

hifi_dave

31-01-2012, 16:46

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/012-1.jpg

Here's one I dug out earlier.:carrot:

spendorman

31-01-2012, 16:56

http://i1058.photobucket.com/albums/t406/hifi_dave/012-1.jpg

Here's one I dug out earlier.:carrot:

I don't remember those bright colours around the stylus. Thought that the original cantilever was light blue, but I could be wrong. I have a Deram in the loft somewhere.

kininigin

01-07-2012, 11:44

Well,after having the G800 for ages now,and thinking the stylus was damaged,i today got it out for another look at it.

When i first set it up,it sounded very sibilant,with insistant highs,so thought it was damaged.I then got a vintage shure SC35C and forgot about the G800,as the SC35C is perfect for what i mainly listen to.

So today i cleaned it,set it up as marco described in his first post.The sibilance was still there,but not as bad as i remember.Everything else sounded fine and was hinting that there was more to come.Reading through the thread,i was reminded that marco added a 3grm weight and heavier c/w.

Now i don't have a heavier c/w,but i did stick a 5 pence piece on the headshell and voila,siblance gone!! Now i can hear what marco has been going on about with this cart,It sounds very good,happy days :D