Re: Russ Andrews. [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 16:54

Received an email today. Not from an AOS member as far as I can tell – but that's of no importance I guess. It did make me laugh. So much so I thought I was suffering from mild bronchitis. I wasn’t. But it felt like it. Here’s an extract:

“ ………. Is there and definitive way that demonstrates just how far mr russ andrews’s (sic) head is up his own rear-end? If so has the recent ASA ruling influenced the outcome?

I was I must confess a bit backed-footed. Anyway you can read my response by clicking > http://not-boring-honestly.blogspot.com/

Ammonite Audio

23-03-2011, 18:05

Do you enjoy shit-stirring?

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 18:12

Do you enjoy shit-stirring?

Do you?

Anyway, who are YOU to imply censorship. If Marco objects then Marco reacts and deletes. That's the rule. WE are all guests in his digital dining room. He's the host, I'm his guest and on the basis that he knows what he's doing (no evidence to the contrary} I'm relaxed about that. I thought you'd have known that as A Senior Member! Not difficult is it?

Meanwhile I'm far from clear regarding the basis you think you opinion is worth more than that of anyone else. I certainly don't take that view about my own opinions. Perhaps a little humility wouldn't be out of order from "Mr hide-behind-a-Pseudonym"

Meanwhile it's no surprise that it's always those who seek anonymity that whinge, complain, bicker and nitpick. Over to you.

Sincerely

H

Ammonite Audio

23-03-2011, 18:25

OK - who seeks anonymity? Marco and many on here know precisely who I am. I give my name and where I live, so please do not accuse me of hiding behind a pseudonym.

As for censorship, I am not censoring anybody, but I am entitled to express an opinion and my simple response contained just such an opinion. If I need to explain further, I am tired of this cheap mudslinging directed at Russ Andrews, who I don't know but whose service has always been straightforward and faultless whenever I have bought anything from him, which is not often. There are many on various internet forums who seem to delight in this mudslinging, and I disapprove. It's as simple as that. If I was also in business, or at least trying to do business, I'd feel even more strongly.

And just to top this argument off, why do you think that my opinion is less welcome than yours?

Welder

23-03-2011, 18:56

One of the reasons I joined this forum was there didn’t seem to be much of this pathetic trade back biting. Just about every other forum I’ve visited is spoilt by trade reps/equipment designers either trying to promote their products or slag off the competition.
The reason the Hi Fi industry is in the sad state it is in is because of the trade, the poor salesmen, the arrogant reviewer, the opinionated Hi Fi journalist.
Wouldn’t it be nice if they all pissed off and let the ordinary man/women enthusiast chat about their hobby without all this bollocks?

Just my opinion and not at all humble.

Spectral Morn

23-03-2011, 19:17

well without being into DIY and building your own gear....without the trade there would be no hobby for those who can't build their own :doh: or had you forgot that fact.

Regards D S D L

Marco

23-03-2011, 19:49

Let's play nicely chaps, please. Everyone here is entitled to their opinion, which is respected equally, whether those who express it are in the trade or are just an enthusiast. It is *precisely* that ethos which makes AoS work.

Howard enjoys tackling prickly subjects in his own inimitable, slightly controversial style, and good on him. He is entitled to his opinion. I think most enjoy his contributions. Hugo (Shuggie's real name, Howard), however, is of course entitled to challenge them as robustly (but politely) as he wishes.

This is what makes the world, and AoS, go round: different strokes for different folks. Tolerance is the key. So let's embrace the fact that we all have something unique to offer to this community, and seek to learn from each other where possible - or just like in real life, avoid each other instead, if that's what works best.... ;)

Carry on, men!

Marco.

Tim

23-03-2011, 19:54

This is what makes the world, and AoS, go round: different strokes for different folks. Tolerance is the key. So let's embrace the fact that we all have something unique to offer to this community, and seek to learn from each other where possible, or just like in real life, avoid each other instead, if that's what works best.... ;)
I'll drink to that :cool:

StanleyB

23-03-2011, 20:01

Just about every other forum I’ve visited is spoilt by trade reps/equipment designers either trying to promote their products or slag off the competition.
The reason the Hi Fi industry is in the sad state it is in is because of the trade, the poor salesmen, the arrogant reviewer, the opinionated Hi Fi journalist.
Wouldn’t it be nice if they all pissed off and let the ordinary man/women enthusiast chat about their hobby without all this bollocks?

Just my opinion and not at all humble.
There is a forum just like that for you. A few years back Marco, Andre me and a few others got ejected from that forum for not quite agreeing with that policy you treasure so much. Especially the bit about ordinary man/woman.
All I would add is thanks for free speech on AoS:cool:.

aquapiranha

23-03-2011, 20:11

andrews deserves everything he gets imo. I will not say more, I am sure however that the ASA have not yet finished with him, and rightly so.

DSJR

23-03-2011, 20:12

Perhaps Howard's views should be posted on here, rather than a link to his own blog?

In days gone by, Russ was one of the "good guys," and helped me professionally a long time ago into making a good career move at the time. It sort of started to go awry in 1988 when he took all his products under his sole distribution..

prestonchipfryer

23-03-2011, 20:37

Over the past 12 years I have been a customer of Russ Andrews' products. I have to say that the things I have bought, yello power cables (now replaced by Mains Cables-r-us products) and some I have put together, rca pbj interconnects, 1 x half-metre between cd and pre-amp, 1 x one metre between pre and power amp, still in use and 8vs speaker cable, 4.5 metre with bananas, have been of high quality and reliable. Also the customer service is second to none in my experience. Why some people have to be so downright nasty with their opinions is totally uncalled for. On one forum someone described Mr. Andrews as a fc. How rude is that? Of course everyone has their own opinions but the use of that sort of language is totally beyond the pale. That's what I like about AOS, no bad language!

John

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 21:17

And just to top this argument off, why do you think that my opinion is less welcome than yours?

Good evening Hugo. Actually, I don't. My view is that our views, i.e yours and mine share mutual levels of validity or invalidity. Simple as that really.

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 21:23

Also the customer service is second to none in my experience. Why some people have to be so downright nasty with their opinions is totally uncalled for. On one forum someone described Mr. Andrews as a fc. How rude is that? Of course everyone has their own opinions but the use of that sort of language is totally beyond the pale. That's what I like about AOS, no bad language!

John

First, as far as I'm aware the great man's customer service has not been called into account. As for me, I've really no idea one way or the other. However .... and it is a big however, the ASA sought and achieved clarification on what they felt (rightly or wrongly) was one or more contentious issues surrounding or coming from the RA organisation.

As far as I'm aware the ASA don't seem to attract accusations of maliciousness. Moreover I very much doubt they have either money or time to waste on what might otherwise be considered trivia.

One might take the view that this is downright discrimination on their part. I don't - but some might.

A counter argument (and hopefully Hugo you might consider this) might be that why should RA be immune from the consequences of his claims – merely because he provides "great service"? Doesn't seem logical to me.

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 21:25

On one forum someone described Mr. Andrews as a fc. How rude is that? Of course everyone has their own opinions but the use of that sort of language is totally beyond the pale. That's what I like about AOS, no bad language!

John

Well said IMHO. I'm with you 100% on your expressed sentiments.

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 21:28

Perhaps Howard's views should be posted on here, rather than a link to his own blog?

Possibly yes. I'm not sure why – from your perspective – but I'm certainly open to this suggestion from now on. So thank you.

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 21:46

If I need to explain further, I am tired of this cheap mudslinging directed at Russ Andrews, who I don't know but whose service has always been straightforward and faultless whenever I have bought anything from him, which is not often. There are many on various internet forums who seem to delight in this mudslinging, and I disapprove.

Hugo. Hello again. Okay, now that’s an interesting observation. My response will for illustrative purposes be taken to a ludicrous extreme, it goes as follows.

If we were to extend the logic of your argument towards infinity it might by some (but not here I think) suggest that Mr. A. Hitler’s zealot-like approach to genocide could be 'marginalised' because he was (a) a vegetarian and (b) liked dogs and (c) was partial to bit of classic music from time to time and (d) arguably made a reasonable stab at producing watercolors. Ah yes, I nearly forgot. Some of his chums invented the first reel to reel wire recorder!

Obviously absurd and deliberately so – but perhaps is indicative of faulty logic. Faultly because, based on these indisputable attributes – in isolation - he would probably be welcome in the most kosher of homes. "Hmm. Seems like a nice boy - and so well dressed too!" "What’s not to like?"

Anyway, just a thought. Sincerely. Howard.

MartinT

23-03-2011, 21:56

Neil McCauley

23-03-2011, 21:59

Focussing on the accusation by the ASA of false claims made by RA, I've said it elsewhere but I'll say it again here (not to defend RA, but to put some well needed reality into the equation): if the ASA's accusations were to be directed at virtually any cable vendor, for instance, they would likely come unstuck. The things we hear in cables are not easy to identify and certainly not easy to measure. There could be many mechanisms at work, possibly including rejection of RFI, but the point is that many hi-fi components are subject to foo claims that cannot easily be proven or disproven.

To me, RA is being used somewhat as a scapegoat.

Possibly. But someone has to make a start somewhere. And why not him? He could have put his hand up and say "Mea culpa". But he didn't - did he? Clearly he wanted a fight. And he lost. It's binary. This is, in the main, the extent to which English law has matured to. Job done I'd have thought. Meanwhile RA first ..... and then the others.

Justice, I guess. Nobody said that justice was 'fair' did they?

Imagine if he was making his claims in Iran, Syria, a lot of Africa and so on.

Finally, and I will pass an opinion on this - RA needed his head examined to use the word 'guarantee' in connection with a claim. Folly. Sheer folly. And why? Because at a stroke that word negates (in the eyes of a cynic) the goodwill engendered by an SOR policy - however generous that SOR policy is. RA is an articulate, experienced and intelligent man, or was when I last met him some 30 years ago. My opinion - and it only is an opinion and not fact is that his Achilles Heel was/is his monumental arrogance in this specific situation that rode rough-shod over his previous commercial sense. So, no sympathy from me, at all. Not even a little bit.

zanash

24-03-2011, 10:58

I also object to this persecution of RA....

I've never purchased any of his products or services ..by the way so I don't have any brand loyalty to maintain.

would it be jealosy from other dealers, or other dealers stooges ? that keep posting this in the forums?

he has built up a sucssesful bussiness ....while others have fallen by the wayside ...I think this is whats getting up a few noses.

I've read much of the asa documentation and findings ....at no point do they say the cable in question does not work ...its just that it appears ra over stepped the claims for its method of operation.

I'm all for free speech ..but with free speech comes responsibility ....

In my opinion slagging off someone just for the sake of it could be considered bullying ...especially as RA has no right of reply to comments made.

Alternatively keeping RA's name in the forums does exactly the opposite to what it seems Howard is out to achieve ..theres no such thing as bad publicity .....

imo your not only sh*t stirring but shooting yourself in the foot at the same time !

Neil McCauley

24-03-2011, 11:11

imo your not only sh*t stirring but shooting yourself in the foot at the same time !

Oh good. Zanash - congratulations. You've guessed the true nature of my game. I stand in front of you - totally unmasked and of course now standing on just one foot, as you predicted. Given time, I guess I'll get used to it. Meanwhile, step up and collect your prize and take a bow. Don't be shy. Probably the RA book of excuses - if one exists. I'll ask him for you.

So my guess is - and correct us all if you believe I'm wrong – but it seems you want un-restricted speech for everyone you approve of, but wish to curtail my freedom of speech because you don't approve. Hmm. Nice.

Meanwhile you might not have noticed that I responded to an incoming email. And nearly everyone, other than you it seems, saw the funny side. I very much doubt if RA is loosing any sleep over this. But it is touching that you feel so passionately about his well-being. Very laudable.

Neil McCauley

24-03-2011, 11:13

I've read much of the asa documentation and findings ....at no point do they say the cable in question does not work ...its just that it appears ra over stepped the claims for its method of operation.

Are you open to the possibility that you might not have fully grasped what they were driving at? Just a thought. Warm regards. Howard

PS: Have you considered the implications behind your use of the word "just" or indeed "much" in your statement above? I guess not. Might be worth considering though, Zanash.

RochaCullen

24-03-2011, 12:44

Really though, if you start questioning RA, don't you have to call into question a lot of this industry, as lets face it quite a lot of what we read, whether it be review, product description or advertising hype, is foo.

I've only been properly involved in this "hobby" for about a year or two, and when I first started I thought prices were massively overinflated, and it is only since building my own set of poweramps that I see the true cost of putting something together using quality components. Add to that the cost of research, advertising and the price of a company christmas party and you have the reason for some of the heavy markup that exists. We all know this.

Then you get the likes of a £1250 power cord. And you enter a whole new realm of business practice.

However, there is one large caveat to this. We are not talking about addictive substances aimed at children or the lower classes, e.g., cigarettes or fatty fast foots (apparently they are addictive too), we are talking about audio jewellery with prestige pricing applied. And I would have thought someone with £1250 (or whatever the price is) in their back pocket must have at least half a brain; enough of a brain to know that when they hand over their cash what they are buying MAY have some affect, the smallest bit of internet research will tell you that.

I certainly don't have that kind of spare change, and neither does the kind of consumer that we should be worring about. That is why I would not get in the least bit passionate about this subject.

Nathan

Marco

24-03-2011, 13:10

In my opinion slagging off someone just for the sake of it could be considered bullying ...especially as RA has no right of reply to comments made.

Not strictly true, Pete. Russ is welcome to register and comment. He's not banned.

Will he though? Unlikely ;)

Marco.

Neil McCauley

24-03-2011, 14:08

Not strictly true, Pete. Russ is welcome to register and comment. He's not banned.

Will he though? Unlikely ;)

Marco.

Why not invite him? Rather good idea Marco. Just because, as it seems he is reviled by a vocal minority on other forums doesn't mean that AoS might be similarly tarnished in his mind? His number is 0845 345 1550