Where Did It All Start?

[The Grand Wazoo]

So, how did it all start?
I found this quote from a book by H.A. Hartley, who ran the Hartley speaker company

Audio Design Handbook

"I invented the phrase "high fidelity" in 1927 to denote a type of sound reproduction that might be taken rather seriously by a music lover. In those days the average radio or phonograph equipment sounded pretty horrible but, as I was really interested in music, it occurred to me that something might be done about it."

Is this really the first time anyone wondered how recorded music could be made to sound better?

Thew book is available on the web but is out of print: http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/books/hartley.pdf
(article about Hartley in the AoS library here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4512 )

[UV101]

Was he any relation to JR Hartley, the man who wrote "fly fishing"

:lol:

Sorry couldn't resist!!

[The Grand Wazoo]

Was he any relation to JR Hartley, the man who wrote "fly fishing"

:lol:

Sorry couldn't resist!!

Ha! I got there first - (from the library piece):

H. A. Hartley wrote several influential books, notably 'The Audio design Handbook', 'Realistic High Fidelity' and 'New Notes in Radio – A Complete Guide to High Fidelity Reproduction'. He also wrote a book about astrology but didn't, however, write a book about fly fishing, or feature in a Yellow Pages TV advert

[Neil McCauley]

Was he any relation to JR Hartley, the man who wrote "fly fishing"

:lol:

Sorry couldn't resist!!

Doubtful. But it is conceivable that he was the offspring of a tryst between Keef Hartley of the band of the same name and the lady behind the eponymous and much missed brand of jam and marmalade!? http://www.alexgitlin.com/khb.htm

[theophile]

In the beginning,there was GOD.... ;)

[theophile]

So, how did it all start?
I found this quote from a book by H.A. Hartley, who ran the Hartley speaker company

Audio Design Handbook

"I invented the phrase "high fidelity" in 1927 to denote a type of sound reproduction that might be taken rather seriously by a music lover. In those days the average radio or phonograph equipment sounded pretty horrible but, as I was really interested in music, it occurred to me that something might be done about it."

Is this really the first time anyone wondered how recorded music could be made to sound better?

Thew book is available on the web but is out of print: http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/books/hartley.pdf
(article about Hartley in the AoS library here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4512 )

Well,if one considers that in order for there to be a speaker company named Hartley,there had to be amplifier companies.If there were amplifier companies in existence then by extension, there had to be people who were interested in improving the quality of sound reproduction before Hartley.

Surely in a situation like audio where the initial endeavours were very low quality,there had to be a desire for improvement right from the beginning because there were so many problems with the early technology,and so little was known about the solutions.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Ah, but you may be confusing the difference between commercial improvement and technical improvement.
Some companies want to gain commercial advantage over the competition. This is not the same as improvement.

[theophile]

Ah, but you may be confusing the difference between commercial improvement and technical improvement.
Some companies want to gain commercial advantage over the competition. This is not the same as improvement.

Show me where I said anything of the sort.

[theophile]

Ah, but you may be confusing the difference between commercial improvement and technical improvement.

I am slow and stupid and need to be educated.I must have my error exposed lest I fall into error again.

Here is what I posted:

Well,if one considers that in order for there to be a speaker company named Hartley,there had to be amplifier companies.If there were amplifier companies in existence then by extension, there had to be people who were interested in improving the quality of sound reproduction before Hartley.

Surely in a situation like audio where the initial endeavours were very low quality,there had to be a desire for improvement right from the beginning because there were so many problems with the early technology,and so little was known about the solutions.
__________________
Please show me the passages where my silly opinion confuses the difference between commercial improvement and technical improvement.I am merely a bumbling soul who never finished High School.I would appreciate a thorough critique of a that wholly unacceptable idea of mine.PM me if you wish.

[The Grand Wazoo]

I'm just on my way out to work. I'll reply properly later today, if you don't mind. I was not trying to be confrontational, apologies if you think I was.

[theophile]

I'm just on my way out to work. I'll reply properly later today, if you don't mind. I was not trying to be confrontational, apologies if you think I was.

Your apology may not be necessary.I await your demonstration of where I confused matters.

[SPS]

the late20's was a time when valves, from a quality perspective where coming to the peak, i use valves from around 1930 and i dont think anything touches them, when it comes to the quality of amplification.
good field coil high efficency speakers where available around the early1930s,

the frequency extremes where not there, but that more down to the recordings and the types of speakers used.

a single ended bsr pp3/250 ( 4watts) amp in 1930 was enough to fill a small dance Hall, so the speakers must still have been quite something
instructions with that amp say to use only good quality efficient speakers or the quality will be ruined.. in my view that still stands today..

back on topic
HA hartley born 1900 gateshead
worked for cosser from 1920 as a valve designer
graham amplion from 1925 as a speaker designer
co founded hartley turner radio 1930
founded HA hartley 1946 (speakers etc)

amplion was quite a company in the late 20's he along with turner 'copied' the rice,kellogs speaker from the US,

the 'lion' speaker he and his boss(turner) made, was promoted as 'high fidelity' ...but in his own words 'what came out of it was actually very low fidelity'. and he writes 'the sins that have been committed in that term since is nobodys business'.
after the war, they sold lots of speakers in the US he was the only british exhibitor at the 1951 new york audio fair and returned in 52,
he sold the company to AEI group in '53 and they closed it in the late 50's

[SPS]

Here is what I posted:

Well,if one considers that in order for there to be a speaker company named Hartley,there had to be amplifier companies.If there were amplifier companies in existence then by extension, there had to be people who were interested in improving the quality of sound reproduction before Hartley.

Surely in a situation like audio where the initial endeavours were very low quality,there had to be a desire for improvement right from the beginning because there were so many problems with the early technology,and so little was known about the solutions.
__________________
.

hartley was involved in both radio's, amplifiers and speakers


His real interest was exactly what you say.. to find and promote the highest levels of fidelity.. he was an engineer
there where many people before him with that same view.. he just coined the phrase high fidelity to promote a product... that was not...

but his real interest was very much sound quality

[theophile]

there where many people before him with that same view..

So we know that he was not the first person to take a serious interest in improving sound quality?

I know that you didn't raise this issue,but I wonder how thinking that others preceded Hartley in having this motivation, confuses the difference between commercial improvement and technological improvement?I fail to see that acknowledging other designers' prior achievements/improvements in the field even introduces the issue of a 'difference between' the two.

It's merely an acknowledgement that:*Many have played a hand in the development of High Fidelity even if they didn't coin the phrase.*Nothing more.Anything more being read into what I said is an invention of the mind of the reader,not my statement.

I will thank The Grand Wazoo for galvanising a decision.I will not burden you with my stupidity any more.

[The Grand Wazoo]

The idea that I was clumsily trying to convey in my hurried manner this morning was that in the early days perhaps there might not have been such an emphasis on the development of the design of electronic amplifiers from a technical viewpoint in order to improve sound quality. Rather, I would wonder whether such devices were seen as something that simply did not require technical improvement for the sake of the fidelity that Hartley spoke of and that any development done would be in pursuit of manufacturing cheaper and more efficiently than the competition in order to gain commercial advantage.

[Marco]

Theo, with respect, why are you getting so uppity? Chris is only expressing his opinion. He isn't trying to demean or devalue yours in any way.

So come here, mate.....


http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4840/18845518.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/i/18845518.jpg/)

;)

Marco.

[Trickie_Dickie]

Who was it that thought of connecting two baked bean tins with a long piece of string? And, does it work? :lolsign:

[SPS]

The idea that I was clumsily trying to convey in my hurried manner this morning was that in the early days perhaps there might not have been such an emphasis on the development of the design of electronic amplifiers from a technical viewpoint in order to improve sound quality. Rather, I would wonder whether such devices were seen as something that simply did not require technical improvement for the sake of the fidelity that Hartley spoke of and that any development done would be in pursuit of manufacturing cheaper and more efficiently than the competition in order to gain commercial advantage.

valves saw rapid development though out the 20's the valve from an audio perspective peaked at the end, so much so latter valves tend to sacrifice quality for quantity (watts).
theres not alot in it really, though in hi fi we can have some fun or one up manship over a cats cock of extra something.

hartley writes of quantity manufacturing, and compares to researching and producing the highest quality equipment as being being poles apart, just as it is today really... the market for the good stuff is so small in comparison

new technologys come and go, but there's always a broad spectrum of both the quality of it, and what people are prepared to pay for that quality.

amplifier quality was already good.. long before moving coil loudspeakers came about...

[MartinT]

In the beginning,there was GOD.... ;)

That's been usurped by the Big Bang ;)

[StanleyB]

That's been usurped by the Big Bang ;)
In the Old Testament that is penned down as:' And He created Heaven and Earth.' ;)