Tech Talk on the Harbeth website.

[Dingdong]

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=designersnotebook


I was having a bit of a mooch around on tinternet and discovered this. It's quite informative, if that's your sort of thing.

[hifi_dave]

There's lots of useful and sensible information on the Harbeth website.

[DSJR]

Good advice, loads of reference articles and lovely endearing products to boot. Just don't get personal or spout any "audiophoolery" as the reaction from "the management" is quite subtly cutting - not bombastic as Ash & JC on HDD can be ;)

[Marco]

Why do people need to behave like that? Does it give them a stiffy or something? :rolleyes:

There's no excuse for anyone running a website or forum to be "subtly cutting", "bombastic" - or anything other than helpful, respectful, and nice (as we are here)!

Marco.

[DSJR]

Don't mis-understand me Marco. The HUG is a genuinely manufacturer led forum mainly there to promote THEIR products and share in user-knowledge :) The thing is, as reviews - often ill informed and written with "attitude" - have destroyed some really good products and manufacturers over the years, so internet peeps risk doing the same if their comments are totally wrong. Harbeth is a great firm and truly deserves the good reputation it's garnered over thirty five years or so, but the amount of claptrap that used to be posted on the forum there, yet with some sane and very sensible ways round potential issues, has possibly brought about a very careful moderation on some threads. Knowing the main personality as I do, I KNOW the total and almost manic dedication and care he puts in to his company and products and I also know that he'd be utterly devastated if this company failed because of external influences, rather than shortcomings in the products themselves, if you see what I mean.

As with AOS (yep, and PFM and HDD etc too), you have to know how to "speak the lingo," and I don't mean that negatively, as good communication is the key to EVERYONE's growing I think. Do that on the HUG, and it's a lovely place to be, by and large :)

[Tim]

There's no excuse for anyone running a website or forum to be "subtly cutting", "bombastic" - or anything other than helpful, respectful, and nice (as we are here)!
Hear, hear to that ..... there are far too many forums around like that. We are all different and all have differing wants, needs, desires and taste (and budgets!).

AoS is most certainly a cut above the norm :)

[Neil McCauley]

Harbeth?

FYI > http://www.stereonow.co.uk/QA-Harbeth.html

[DSJR]

Sour grapes methinks? - and the 40.1 is one of the best sorted large passive speakers in modern production I've heard. Maybe yours weren't set up right, although you did get good comments from the room at a Bristol show you exhibited them at.

Regarding UK supply. I know two UK dealers who actually sell a good few pairs each to UK customers each quarter and neither have issues with supply, unless it's a tricky finish that they don't have stock made up on. Even then, the delay isn't weeks and weeks...

Like I said above - you need to speak the language, "walk the walk" and "talk the talk," with clients and suppliers (and forums), to get what you need from them and vice-versa :)

P.S. every story has two sides ;)

[hifi_dave]

AOS is definitely a respectful, well behaved place to be, unlike a couple of other forums I won't name...:eek:
Hear, hear to that ..... there are far too many forums around like that. We are all different and all have differing wants, needs, desires and taste (and budgets!).

AoS is most certainly a cut above the norm :)

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


Don't mis-understand me Marco. The HUG is a genuinely manufacturer led forum mainly there to promote THEIR products and share in user-knowledge The thing is, as reviews - often ill informed and written with "attitude" - have destroyed some really good products and manufacturers over the years, so internet peeps risk doing the same if their comments are totally wrong.


I understand where you're coming from, of course, but as all most people do on forums is offer their subjective opinion, which is perfectly valid, there is no such thing as being "totally wrong", thus no-one should be rudely dismissed in that way, especially by whoever is running an Internet site.

It's a different ball game if we're talking about 'black and white' things like facts and figures, where there *is* a right and wrong, and mistakes made can be politely corrected by someone more knowledgeable, but otherwise there is no instance whatsoever where being "subtly cutting" or "bombastic" towards anyone is acceptable.

That's what causes friction and resentment, and ultimately leads to fighting. This is something we strive very hard to prevent here.

You mentioned the HDD forum; I shake my head in disbelief whenever I'm unfortunate enough to be faced with its puerile and doctrinarian content, and witness how those who run it simply don't have a clue :rolleyes:

Furthermore, I don't go with the notion either that you have to behave in a certain way, depending on which forum you participate, in order to be accepted by the 'cognoscenti'. You should simply be allowed to be yourself (within any stipulated AUP or ethos), to express your opinion freely, and be welcomed accordingly.

Anyway, apologies for the thread drift. It just makes me bristle when I hear of rude behaviour being justified or rationalised, however thoughtful or well intended you meant it.

Marco.

[Neil McCauley]

Sour grapes methinks? - and the 40.1 is one of the best sorted large passive speakers in modern production I've heard. Maybe yours weren't set up right, although you did get good comments from the room at a Bristol show you exhibited them at.

Regarding UK supply. I know two UK dealers who actually sell a good few pairs each to UK customers each quarter and neither have issues with supply, unless it's a tricky finish that they don't have stock made up on. Even then, the delay isn't weeks and weeks...

Like I said above - you need to speak the language, "walk the walk" and "talk the talk," with clients and suppliers (and forums), to get what you need from them and vice-versa :)

P.S. every story has two sides ;)

Wrong, wrong and err .... wrong. Surely not too much to ask for you to get your facts right, is it? Sour grapes? Oh I don't think so. Just fed up having to give excuses to disappointed customers because Mr. Shaw [possibly] decides that a container load to the Far East is a more sensible move rather than making a few irrelevant UK customers unhappy. Mr. Shaw knows precisely where the money is, where it comes from and how easily he can get it. Exports = 1 UK = 0.

Next, it was Heathrow and not Bristol. Mr. Shaw was so disappointed with the sound of the 40.1s in the room, and so dismayed by the difference in bass performance between the LFD speaker cables and the LAT ones (yes he did hear it, despite his public stance that cables differences are an illusion) that he went home on the Friday night to rejig the crossover design and arrived very early the next morning, made the mods (which without evidence to the contrary are still used today) and the sound did in fact become award-winning. Using LFD amplification and NorthStar digital sources incidentally. Now I guess you didn’t know and of this did you?

Okay so you “know two retailers …..”, etc. And your point is what precisely? Good fortune, favoritism or what? The reason these retailers had no issues (apparently) with supply is quite possibly they didn’t achieve enough orders for it to be a problem. Had you stopped to consider this possibility? For me I take a very pragmatic approach. This activity isn’t a hobby for me. I’m running a business. My responsibility is to the customer and not the supplier. Would you have it any other way?

If I cannot obtain at least £50k (trade ex vat) of supplies from a supplier in 12 months I’m not interested. Simple as that. Harbeth, back in 2009 couldn’t get close.

Harbeth made it abundantly clear that they value the export market far far more highly than the UK. Mr. Shaw, over lunch with me described much of his historic UK retailer network as “flakey”. Not my words but his. Rightly or wrongly I formed the impression that unvarnished naked adulation was what he wanted and expected. As for me I’m not into hero worship. The relationship went downhill as it became apparent that I bow to no-one. I guess you didn’t know that either, right? I don’t expect to be grateful for a pair of speakers. I pay up front for them and expect a prompt response. I'm running a business and not a fan club for egotistical suppliers.

And as for your no-doubt well-intentioned but for me irrelevant advice (sorry, but that’s how I see it) in your final paragraph, thanks – but no thanks. As Ray Charles famously said at the RFH in a gig I was fortunate to be at when an audience member issued (similarly) well-intentioned but ultimately valueless advice; “Son – I have my gig to do tonight. Your one can wait” Rather elegant I feel and not inappropriate here.

Finally, do I detect just a tad of brown-nosing re the 40.1? Heard them in your home have you? Over an extended period have you? With all manner of sources? Unless you have then in my opinion your observations are selective and inadvertently lack total credibility. I am in no doubt that you write as you heard it. Nothing wrong with that all. I very much respect your opinion and maintain your total right to express it - even though i disagree with it. But common-sense must surely indicate that a positive experience in place “A” – wherever place “A” is can hardly be expanded into a global perspective. "One Swallow doesn't make a summer" springs to mind here. Nevertheless, thank you.

Search for disappointed 40.1 owners on the internet who have common cause re sloppy bass and you might be enlightened. Meanwhile the SHL-5 remains his absolute masterpiece and one of the true pinnacles of cabinet speaker design of all time.

In my opinion the 40.1 is a scaled-up, presumably vastly more profitable and as yet unconvincing outcome. But hey, that’s just my opinion. Which of course is as valid or invalid as yours and vice versa. It is 'just' a big box, well made with decent drivers and a clever crossover – and yet it cost a lot more than most Rolex watches, some new cars, the top-of-the line Nikon, a round the World cruise, and so on. Beat's me. It really does.

Meanwhile thank you for being the catalyst for my ‘sermon’ – which is now completed. Incidentally, to the best of my knowledge I've been wrong more times than I've been right. How about you?

Sincerely and with good wishes to you.

HP.

[Marco]

Mr. Shaw, over lunch with me described much of his historic UK retailer network as “flakey”. Not my words but his. Rightly or wrongly I formed the impression that unvarnished naked adulation was what he wanted and expected. As for me I’m not into hero worship. The relationship went downhill as it became apparent that I bow to no-one. I guess you didn’t know that either, right? I don’t expect to be grateful for a pair of speakers. I pay up front for them and expect a prompt response.


Top-notch, Howard. We are in total agreement in that respect. Much as I have no problem personally with Mr Shaw, "hero worship" is for sycophantic idiots. I don't give a monkey's bollocks who anyone is or what 'reputation' they've got. Respect and admiration must be earned through first hand experience of someone's actions.

Marco.

[DSJR]

An interesting riposte..

I have spent some time with 40.1's in their final production state, using many different amps and a small number of analogue and digital sources and still love them to bits. They were clearly better than the HL5 Se whatevers as I find the HL5 series' bass tends to swamp the mid if one isn't careful with partnering equipment (ask Tony Lonagan, who had a spectacular mismatch) and the latest Compact 7's in my opinion too. I haven't compared them to the Spendor SP100R2's though and will never be able to as Spendor are even more reluctant to supply their classic range to the UK market. The bass "problem" has been proved as room modes being set off, unless I'm very much mistaken. The 40.1 and indeed the SP100 series aren't particularly tightly damped, but I never found the 40.1 a huge problem either and certainly no worse than the current tannoys at a similar price, with which I briefly compared them.

I didn't know that you demand 50K per year of business from your suppliers. I'm surprised that any dealer of any brand does this much, except the largest Linn, B&O and Naim ones these days, but I bet LFD love you to bits, being their biggest dealer and all... As you are aware, Harbeth don't supply huge numbers of product into the UK, but there seems to be ample available for the clients that want them, otherwise your giving up the brand would have brought about huge business increases with the local ones that sell them, wouldn't it?

Like you Howard, I don't brown-tongue any maker, or dealer for that matter. I still have good friends in the industry and many of these never post here, although one or two look in from time to time. We "all" knew of each other and what "we" are and were like and, believe me, I have no ego left to bruise, or face to save. I know what Mr Shaw is like, but I do know the curent products and rate them very highly. It may give a chuckle to you to know that I was accused of the same sort of "hero worship" to Harbeth by the "AVI" crowd as you possibly infer. I like the products, have owned HL5's until madame rejected the broad shape and have dealt professionally with them in the past with no issues.

Hopefully, people here will know me well enough to know that I also have a pragmatic approach and only usually comment on things I've personally experienced.

At the end of the day, I'm a consumer and vociferous poster here, hopefully able to express my opinion and experience as just that. I don't have a business to feed, or gain any livelihood from audio and certainly have no agenda, if ever I had after the Linn chip was removed. I like the "BBC Legacy" approach to speaker design and find many "HiFi" alternatives just that - "HiFi..."

I'd better leave it there..

[Neil McCauley]

An interesting riposte..

I have spent some time with 40.1's in their final production state, using many different amps and a small number of analogue and digital sources and still love them to bits. They were clearly better than the HL5 Se whatevers as I find the HL5 series' bass tends to swamp the mid if one isn't careful with partnering equipment (ask Tony Lonagan, who had a spectacular mismatch) and the latest Compact 7's in my opinion too. I haven't compared them to the Spendor SP100R2's though and will never be able to as Spendor are even more reluctant to supply their classic range to the UK market. The bass "problem" has been proved as room modes being set off, unless I'm very much mistaken. The 40.1 and indeed the SP100 series aren't particularly tightly damped, but I never found the 40.1 a huge problem either and certainly no worse than the current tannoys at a similar price, with which I briefly compared them.

I didn't know that you demand 50K per year of business from your suppliers. I'm surprised that any dealer of any brand does this much, except the largest Linn, B&O and Naim ones these days, but I bet LFD love you to bits, being their biggest dealer and all... As you are aware, Harbeth don't supply huge numbers of product into the UK, but there seems to be ample available for the clients that want them, otherwise your giving up the brand would have brought about huge business increases with the local ones that sell them, wouldn't it?

Like you Howard, I don't brown-tongue any maker, or dealer for that matter. I still have good friends in the industry and many of these never post here, although one or two look in from time to time. We "all" knew of each other and what "we" are and were like and, believe me, I have no ego left to bruise, or face to save. I know what Mr Shaw is like, but I do know the curent products and rate them very highly. It may give a chuckle to you to know that I was accused of the same sort of "hero worship" to Harbeth by the "AVI" crowd as you possibly infer. I like the products, have owned HL5's until madame rejected the broad shape and have dealt professionally with them in the past with no issues.

Hopefully, people here will know me well enough to know that I also have a pragmatic approach and only usually comment on things I've personally experienced.

At the end of the day, I'm a consumer and vociferous poster here, hopefully able to express my opinion and experience as just that. I don't have a business to feed, or gain any livelihood from audio and certainly have no agenda, if ever I had after the Linn chip was removed. I like the "BBC Legacy" approach to speaker design and find many "HiFi" alternatives just that - "HiFi..."

I'd better leave it there..

I'm delighted we had this digital dialogue. I really am. This does for me epitomise what civilised forum dialogue should be. And this of course puts many of the posts on some other audiophile forums into stark contrast. So, again, thank you.

[Dingdong]

Anyhow. I thought the articles were quite good. Can't say as I give too much of a toss about the other stuff.

[hifi_dave]

Oh dear, someone is in a bad mood...:eek:

I was going to stay out of this but I don't feel that I can let this go. Alan Shaw and his Product Manager are amongst the nicest people I have dealt with in the Hi-Fi business. They are always understanding and helpful with nothing ever too much trouble. I have nothing but praise for their professionalism even when I ask them for yet another favour.

I sell Harbeth every week and have done for over two years now and I rarely wait longer than two weeks for any pair of speakers. The longest wait was for a pair of M40.1 in a non standard finish when the lead time was six weeks. Hardly a deal breaker for a specialist speaker.

On the M40.1 subject, Dave has heard and enjoyed them here, at his home and in the home of one of my customers, who bought them. So his opinions are based on listening to them in three very different rooms with very different systems.

Alan Shaw and his team must be doing something right because their lead time in most markets is now over a year but despite this, they never keep me waiting for their very popular speakers.

[Dingdong]

If you all want to talk about Mr Shaw and his M40's could you do it somewhere else. I find the thread jacking a little rude.

[Neil McCauley]

Where would you suggest ?Meanwhile Marco seems relaxed so what's your problem?

[hifi_dave]

Where would you suggest ?Meanwhile Marco seems relaxed so what's your problem?

Well, I agree with Howard on this one.

[Dingdong]

How's about a new thread entitled 'Mr Shaw and his M40's'. You could talk about them to your hearts content on that thread.

[Neil McCauley]

Oh dear, someone is in a bad mood...:eek:

I was going to stay out of this but I don't feel that I can let this go. Alan Shaw and his Product Manager are amongst the nicest people I have dealt with in the Hi-Fi business. They are always understanding and helpful with nothing ever too much trouble. I have nothing but praise for their professionalism even when I ask them for yet another favour.

I sell Harbeth every week and have done for over two years now and I rarely wait longer than two weeks for any pair of speakers. The longest wait was for a pair of M40.1 in a non standard finish when the lead time was six weeks. Hardly a deal breaker for a specialist speaker.

On the M40.1 subject, Dave has heard and enjoyed them here, at his home and in the home of one of my customers, who bought them. So his opinions are based on listening to them in three very different rooms with very different systems.

Alan Shaw and his team must be doing something right because their lead time in most markets is now over a year but despite this, they never keep me waiting for their very popular speakers.

And of course they are Gods that walk among us in human form while we grovelling wretches wait humbly at their feet for than next piece of wisdom.

Sadly in this respect I am deficient. In short I'm not worthy - and I acknowledge of my own free will that of course this is entirely appropriate. Shaw forgive me for I have sinned. Unclean, unworthy - and so on. Looks like you've guaranteed, via this posting, a benign benevolence and probably an even more efficient delivery time. And that, for now, is all I have to say on the matter.

[Neil McCauley]

Yes but if you read earlier I have nothing more to say on the matter. Over, out and of course thank you.

[Marco]

Hi Mark,


How's about a new thread entitled 'Mr Shaw and his M40's'. You could talk about them to your hearts content on that thread.

If you really want me to split the thread, I will, however I do think both topics are related. As OP, though, the decision is yours :)

Marco.

[hifi_dave]

I've done anyway and I hope I have put the record straight..:cheers:

[Macca]

http://www.harbeth.co.uk/uk/index.php?section=products&page=designersnotebook


I was having a bit of a mooch around on tinternet and discovered this. It's quite informative, if that's your sort of thing.

Just finished reading all of the Tech Talk stuff - fascinating. The sections about listening and the crossover network are a good read. I'm glad I didn't know any of that when I was building speakers or I wouldn't have even attempted it;)

[Welder]

How on earth did you build your speakers then Martin? :eek:

Yep, an interesting read but no more informative than many speaker building sites ;)

[Macca]

How on earth did you build your speakers then Martin? :eek:

Yep, an interesting read but no more informative than many speaker building sites ;)

cap on the tweeter inductor on the mid-bass - bollox to level matching it doesn't matter that much in a big room;) - I built some for a local DJ (well he built the cabs I did the soldering and the - ahem - design). He was sick of blowing tweeters so I used Motorola piezo-electric horns - you can't blow them and they don't need a cap to filer out the bass signal.

He just wanted a home PA really - he was well happy with them. Interestingly I ordered an inductor for the bass unit but it took ages to turn up and when it finally did I took it round to retro fit it but he wouldn't let me - said they sounded fine with the bass driver run all the way up. Some folk eh?

[Welder]

Ah, I see, not really domestic speakers then :)

[Macca]

Ah, I see, not really domestic speakers then :)

Yes...

Youll notice from my sig that my current speakers were desigend and built by people who know/knew what they were doing and not by me:eyebrows:

He was only playing dance music anyway, no point in spending thousands. I think they cost £200 the pair including the chipboard for the cabs.

[Welder]

I did see the speakers in your sig, but anyone mentions speaker building and I get curious ;)

[Macca]

I did see the speakers in your sig, but anyone mentions speaker building and I get curious ;)

Likewise - I'm intending to build some very big single 15'' driver + supertweter efforts - some day - so soaking up this sort of thing may come in useful.

[Welder]

Cool, you’ll be wanting something on this page then :)
http://www.first-av.co.uk/speakers-volt-pro-pa-1383-0.html

[Macca]

This looks good:

http://www.first-av.co.uk/cx220-1-volt-8-150w-full-range-coax-chassis-2288-0.html

What I was thinking of using:

http://www.commonsenseaudio.com/nirvana.html