View Full Version : Record Flattening
Does anybody know if a dewarping service exists. I've got a sealed copy of this
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m262/mumblescuddles/duke-ellington--the-afro-eurasian-e.jpg
and 40 years of shrinkwrap have done its worst. It's either a disc flattener or the old 2 panes of glass trick to save it :doh:
A great record b.t.w.
hifi_dave
15-03-2011, 20:44
Two pieces of glass and an airing cupboard often do the job.
“A great record b.t.w.”
You mean was……….
Sry, couldn’t help myself :lolsign:
Beechwoods
15-03-2011, 20:56
I suspect that any 'straightening affect' would be short-lived, a bit like baking a tape - a couple of plays and it returns to it's preferred state... or is this bonkers and you end up with a flat LP for life?
hifi_dave
15-03-2011, 21:08
I've only seen a handful that have been worth the effort but it does appear to be a proper fix. Maybe only with records that have been mistreated rather than those which have come off the press as warped.
I think Mains cables r us has one of those Furutech machines. Maybe he offers a disc flattening service?
yes I do, £1775 for flattening your entire collection....:ner:
I think there may be one '7' too many there, daftee! ;)
Marco.
I think there may be one '7' too many there, daftee! ;)
Marco.
But the collection is 30,000 records. :)
The Grand Wazoo
15-03-2011, 22:30
You supply the labour, I think Clive.
You supply the labour, I think Clive.
Nah, not how I read it!
>>>yes I do, £1775 for flattening your entire collection...
The Grand Wazoo
15-03-2011, 22:34
I tried some experiments with a steam cleaner a while back and failed miserably. I think Dave's suggestion or something similar might be the best bet. My conclusions were that if you apply heat, it should be very gradually brought up to temperature (& not too much) and then similarly cooled down - but much more slowly than I could manage.
I gave up!
:lol:
yes I do, £1775 for flattening your entire collection....:ner:
:lol:
WOStantonCS100
15-03-2011, 23:32
Does anybody know anyone who has actually ever done this with sonically acceptable results???
I hear this a lot and I've seen the device that is being sold; but, I can't seem to find anyone who's done a "before and after" test.
A few months ago I purchased an LP on auction and when it arrived it was flat, very flat. I quick glance over said, eh, pretty good. I threw it on my TT and side one was great. Side two; however, was a nightmare of distortion where every bass note and every high note was just awful. Everything in between was muddy and noisy. I took the record off and inspected much more closely. It became obvious that the record had been warped and then flattened out. One giveaway was that, American pressings from this label in this era, had the protective raised edges; but, this LP now had flat edges. When I lightly ran my fingers over the grooves (groove, really) the feel was just wrong. Looking closely at the run out groove revealed the tell tale "swirls" (for lack of a better term) that often appeared when a record has been overheated/warped. I promptly got a return authorization and shipped the LP back to the seller WHO HAS STILL NOT RETURNED THE FUNDS that he promised in a written email he would and this is a bricks and mortar record store.
The problem seems to me to be how to flatten the record without flattening the groove wall and/or stretching or compressing the sides of the groove wall. I'm not sure about the appliance; but, a couple raw panes of glass could certainly make matters even worse (I know that from personal experience). If someone's done this successfully, I sure would like to know how they did it and hear a before/after comparison because that machine isn't cheap and if the results are just so, so, it makes more sense to me to get a better copy, if available. If not, I'm thinking that's when I would opt for a cassette or CD over damaged vinyl.
The Grand Wazoo
15-03-2011, 23:36
Well all I can say is that £1700 buys a hell of a lot of mint condition 1st pressings & I've only ever had about 10 discs rendered unplayable because of warps.
Most methods seem to involve placing the warped record between two sheets of 6mm glass and ‘baking’ for a short time:
http://www.radiodismuke.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=670
http://www.wikihow.com/Fix-a-Warped-Vinyl-Record
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/roadhouse/warped.html
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188522/how_to_fix_a_warped_record.html?cat=6
However, others have reported dismal failure using the ‘solar powered’ method.
Personally I rather like this method:
1. Set the record on a soft towel on the centre-line of a two-lane road in rural New Mexico.
2. Put a little heap of birdseed on it and stick a little sign that says "free birdseed" into the pile.
3. The roadrunner will eat all the seed, the coyote will run out after him and a huge boulder will flatten the coyote on top of the record. The coyote's hide will keep the record from getting scratched by the boulder.
4. Peel off the coyote and play the record.
And there is this for the more adventurous: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080128204324AAbfrD4
I have only ever had one record with a serious and alarming warp. It was a Big Bill Broonzy recording on Philips, the last recording he made. I managed to reduce the warp to manageable levels by placing it at the start of my record collection and letting the side pressure of 100 or so Blues records slowly reduce the warp. It took about six months. Depending on which cartridge I use, I may have to remove the anti-skating bias in order to play it. But at least I can play it now, which I couldn’t originally.
WOStantonCS100
15-03-2011, 23:45
Personally I rather like this method:
1. Set the record on a soft towel on the centre-line of a two-lane road in rural New Mexico.
2. Put a little heap of birdseed on it and stick a little sign that says "free birdseed" into the pile.
3. The roadrunner will eat all the seed, the coyote will run out after him and a huge boulder will flatten the coyote on top of the record. The coyote's hide will keep the record from getting scratched by the boulder.
4. Peel off the coyote and play the record.
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
WOStantonCS100
16-03-2011, 00:06
The lack of happy customer testimonials and a youtube video showing actual success really has me skeptical. Maybe there is a user (not manufacturer) submitted video on the web somewhere and I just can't find it. :scratch:
Well all I can say is that £1700 buys a hell of a lot of mint condition 1st pressings & I've only ever had about 10 discs rendered unplayable because of warps.
Agreed, Chris (one cannot dispute your argument from a music buying perspective), but we're not talking here about un-playable records - we're talking about slightly warped ones, and improving how they sound through flattening. The Furutech, therefore, in that respect, could be as invaluable as a good RCM for the serious vinyl enthusiast (count me in) :)
How many slightly warped (or not absolutely perfectly flat) records do you have in your collection? I've probably got 100s, 'dished' to various degrees, many brand new (still playable), but it pisses me right off!
One thing that struck me very significantly when I was 'road testing', as it were, the Oyaide T/T mat and record clamp David sent me, was how sonically significant it was playing completely flat records, due to the way their respective designs work in tandem together to 'iron out' any warps present.
I suspect that the Furutech would do an even better job, as indeed seemed the case when I attended a demonstration of the unit by a Furutech representative at a hi-fi show a few years back.
Not having to watch your cartridge negotiating a 'rollercoaster ride', as the stylus traverses a warped record is most satisfying, as indeed was the easily heard lowering of distortion, as a result of minimised tracking error. The beneficial sonic effect, IMO, therefore was easily as significant as that obtained from using an RCM and having immaculately clean records.
Therefore in the near future I'll be buying one of the Furutech record flatteners and incorporating it into my existing record care regime, where it will no doubt become as invaluable as the Furutech anti-static brush I use now every day...
I may even offer a record flattening service to members, and share out (hopefully) the sonic advantages the product gives :cool:
It is, after all, an expensive item, and so it won't be for everyone.
Marco.
Ah - I remember the good ol' days (40 years ago) when I would have to put a 10p coin on the headshell of my SP25 in order to play Cream's Fresh Cream. :doh:
The Grand Wazoo
16-03-2011, 00:19
What did you use in the pre-decimal days when the album was first released Barry?
Hi Biff,
The lack of happy customer testimonials and a youtube video showing actual success really has me skeptical. Maybe there is a user (not manufacturer) submitted video on the web somewhere and I just can't find it. :scratch:
Good point. However, I suspect that due to the high cost of the unit, not that many will have been sold (certainly in the grand scheme of things), and those who have bought them are perhaps not the type to make testimonials.
I'll certainly post a full review when I buy mine, so you can look forward to that :)
Marco.
What did you use in the pre-decimal days when the album was first released Barry?
:lolsign:
Barry was around when the HMV dog was a puppy! :lol:
Marco.
:lolsign:
Barry was around when the HMV dog was a puppy! :lol:
Marco.
Cheeky Blighter! :ner:
To answer Chris's question it was florin; I merely translated for the benefit of our younger reader's.
The Grand Wazoo
16-03-2011, 00:33
Cheeky Blighter! :ner:
To answer Chris's question it was florin; I merely translated for the benefit of our younger reader's.
.........I thought maybe a groat!
WOStantonCS100
16-03-2011, 02:35
Hi Biff,
Good point. However, I suspect that due to the high cost of the unit, not that many will have been sold (certainly in the grand scheme of things), and those who have bought them are perhaps not the type to make testimonials.
I'll certainly post a full review when I buy mine, so you can look forward to that :)
Marco.
You'll have a captive audience in me, for certain. I really hope it does do the trick. I, myself, have a handful of LP's that I could replace; but, it would certainly be nice to have the option not to. Maybe I'd even be less paranoid about having LP's shipped to the house during the summer months!
I may even offer a record flattening service to members, and share out (hopefully) the sonic advantages the product gives :cool:
It is, after all, an expensive item, and so it won't be for everyone.
Marco.
Form an orderly queue now ;). The record is playable but incredibly dished - if I had a VPI rim weight it would probably sort it out.
BTH K10A
16-03-2011, 06:49
Form an orderly queue now ;). The record is playable but incredibly dished - if I had a VPI rim weight it would probably sort it out.
I think that could be the right solution.
I had a long discussion on this subject with a serious record collector (25,000+ records) a few years ago.
He was fortunate to be the owner of a Trio L-07D compete with the peripheral stabiliser ring. He said that, together with a big heavy centre stabiliser, was the best solution he had found. He also said that using a dynamically balanced tonearm and a high compliance cartridge helped too.
Andy
Hi Andy,
I do agree, as experience tells me so. A friend of mine uses exactly that combination and I've heard the results! Furthermore, the L-07D remains one of the finest T/Ts I've had the pleasure of listening to.
If you want to hear exactly what's wrong with (low or medium-mass) belt-drive T/Ts, then listen to the utterly rock-stable and highly musical sound of the Kenwood! :)
However, for those of us who don't own an L-07D, or indeed a rim weight of any description (I think one would look ridiculous on the Techy, anyway), the Furutech record flattener is likely the best option for those of us who demand to have perfectly flat records :cool:
Marco.
Hi Biff,
You'll have a captive audience in me, for certain. I really hope it does do the trick. I, myself, have a handful of LP's that I could replace; but, it would certainly be nice to have the option not to.
Thing is, are you really sure that it's only a handful? I'm talking here about ANY record in your collection which isn't absolutely and utterly 100% flat - not even the slightest waver, as it spins round the platter. In effect, as perfectly flat as the platter itself.
You must have more than that, unless you've been extremely lucky! :)
Quite frankly, the quality control in vinyl pressing plants these days is shocking, and so more often than not (certainly in my experience) brand new records bought are rarely 100% flat. At best, there is usually a slight bowed effect, and at worst a genuine full-blown warp.
Rather ironically, older second-hand records are often better in that respect, and indeed it's my albums from the 1950s (all automatically produced on heavyweight vinyl, such as was expected in those days) which are the flattest, save some modern expensive audiophile pressings from the likes of Pure Pleasure and Mobile Fidelity. I wonder why that is, eh? :rolleyes:
And *that* is precisely why the Furutech, if it works as well as I suspect it will, would be such a useful tool - not simply to eradicate warps on records which make them un-playable, but any slight bowed effects too, so that when one is watching records being played, the cartridge and stylus are hardly moving up and down at all, and thus distortion is signifcantly reduced... It's the only way records will sound anything like as good as the original master (which would've been flat)!
From the Needle Doctor site:
Modern vinyl records are thin and flexible and often warped or bowed. As most records do not lie flat on the turntable platter, sound reproduction suffers due to un-damped vinyl resonances caused by the stylus riding on an unsupported record.
Records, which are bowed downwards, contact the platter at the outer edge but not in the middle. Conversely, records that are warped or bowed upwards tend to rock on the platter. In these instances anti-skating compensation is less effective and record wear is increased substantially by the lateral or vertical seesawing motion of the tonearm/cartridge combination.
*That* is exactly what's going on, and why something must be done about it if you have any notions of obtaining 'perfect' vinyl replay.
Another serious bugbear of mine is when recycled vinyl is used on new records and there is what I would call 'skidmarks', or a cloudy staining, on the surface, which no RCM will shift as it's impregnated into the vinyl itself. And when sunlight shines on records, when they're sat on the platter, they look horrible, and as if they're dirty....
Do you know what I mean? That does my tits in!
The perfect records for me are those which are 100% flat, are produced from nice shiny virgin vinyl in mint condition, have 'silent' groove walls, and the recording quality of the music on them (and the music itself) is fantastic - so no, I'm not fussy at all!! :lol:
Marco.
I personally have found my oyaide mat and weight does a terrific job of flattening the vinyl, if your TT will accept the mat (any weight will work as long as its 350-400g weight) its recommended.
That's very good advice, providing you're not using a Mike New platter on a Techy :)
Marco.
if your TT will accept the mat
Lol - indeed.
But rather than it not "accepting" it (which one would take to mean that it doesn't fit), it's that it is not sonically compatible with an MN platter, due to the combined excess mass. My apologies for being pedantic, but we wouldn’t want people getting the wrong idea! ;)
Marco.
That's just your opinion boss, and I would guess that out of the 1000's of Techie owners who are using the deck for audiophile purposes as opposed to DJ's there are probably about 0.00001% who have the MN platter bearing etc.
But it's your forum and technically you are the boss but I have to say you are not the oracle and Oyaide rules IMO. So nerrrrrrrr!
Lol - I'm not saying that the Oyade mat doesn't "rule". Why do you misinterpret things like this sometimes, daftee, and go on the defensive? :doh: :eyebrows:
Chillax brovva!
My previous post wasn't about undermining or devaluing the effectiveness of the Oyaide - it was about ensuring that people didn't misconstrue your remarks as meaning it somehow didn't fit on a Techie with an MN platter!
The Oyaide *is* superb - I just happen to use something else which I consider as even better; something which you haven't yet heard yourself, and thus are in no position to comment on ;)
Marco.
WOStantonCS100
16-03-2011, 17:50
Rather ironically, older second-hand records are often better in that respect, and indeed it's my albums from the 1950s (all automatically produced on heavyweight vinyl, such as was expected in those days) which are the flattest, save some modern expensive audiophile pressings from the likes of Pure Pleasure and Mobile Fidelity. I wonder why that is, eh? :rolleyes:
There it is. I couldn't agree more. I'm hoping as time goes on "the newbies" in the pressing plants will become masters of their trade. I also hope the pressers allow them to become masters of their trade and allow the platter to cool sufficiently before stuffing them in shrink and out the door they go. One can only hope.
Having said that, my Spin Clean arrived yesterday, along with the newly expanded soundtrack to Elvis' Viva Las Vegas. (no groaning, please). It's by MusicOnVinyl??? Though, I had not heard of them before, the 180g pressing is flat as a board. No problems with mold release agents or little bits of shbat in the grooves. I'm impressed.
I think that could be the right solution.
I has a long discussion on this subject with a serious record collector (25,000+ records) a few years ago.
He was fortunate to be the owner of a Trio L-07D compete with the peripheral stabiliser ring. He said that, together with a big heavy centre stabiliser, was the best solution he had found. He also said that using a dynamically balanced tonearm and a high compliance cartridge helped too.
Andy
Good to see you back with us Andy!
Regards
Lol - I'm not saying that the Oyade mat doesn't "rule". Why do you misinterpret things like this sometimes, daftee, and go on the defensive? :doh: :eyebrows:
Chillax brovva!
My previous post wasn't about undermining or devaluing the effectiveness of the Oyaide - it was about ensuring that people didn't misconstrue your remarks as meaning it somehow didn't fit on a Techie with an MN platter!
The Oyaide *is* superb - I just happen to use something else which I consider as even better; something which you haven't yet heard yourself, and thus are in no position to comment on ;)
Marco.
Even better on your Techie maybe, buy you have not heard my Roksan Shiraz and SME 309 combo so you cannot say if your's is better than mine until we have a bake off oh pimply bottom!
Ooooh...the pink text suits you, dahling, although it clashes with your lemon blouse! :lol: :ner:
Marco.
Epicurus
17-03-2011, 16:04
Actually, here (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech6/destat.html) is a review of both the Destat and the LP flattener - done by 6moons audio. The reviewer says the flattener works well on LPs with "run-of-the-mill" warps, but there are some seriously warped ("pinch warped) LPs where it simply can't help at all. The article says, and I quote:
Alas, it's still an imperfect world. While the run-of-the-mill warps are easily fixed, my Pink Floyd repair was a failure. The damaged LP did get commendably flat, that wasn't the issue. But while the stylus can track it, the disc will have to be retired. The reason why is fairly easy to see when you think about it. The LP was so warped that if you were to trace the edge of the LP with your finger, it would zig to the left and right of what would be center if the LP were true. As it's true that the shortest distance is a straight line around the LP -- the line traced on a true LP -- you can imagine that the distance traveled around this LP was much greater than when true. That added circumference on the circle equates to added surface area on the LP disc. And when pressed, all that added surface area didn't just vanish into thin air. Something about the geometry of the disc had to give and none of those groves would ever be the same again. The groves were no longer concentric. There was one point on the record where the stylus would shift violently toward the outer perimeter only to be thrown with equal force back toward the spindle again. It wasn't pretty to watch and sounded even worse. Further listening proved that the treble performance had been shorn from the spectrum. Someone turned off my tweeters - well, that's how it sounded at least.
Besides the unit's limitations (well, every electric, mechanical and/or electronic product has limitations anyway), what really bugs me though - and it's one of the two reasons (the other is money) that keeps me from considering Furutech's unit - is that no mention is made of how it performs with 7" records (45rpm singles - my dad's given me about fifty of them; four have become pretzels over the years, while some others are stuff I'd rather dive into the about-to-go-KABOOM reactors at the Fukushima plant than listen to for more than half a nanosecond).
WOStantonCS100
17-03-2011, 16:37
Thanks for posting that link!!!
Contact with the panels will be made at the center of the LP and the outer groove guard (the outermost raised portion of the LP). Only LPs with that groove guard can be repaired.
Unfortunately, that rules out many great UK, Japanese (others?) pressings and many heavy vinyl pressings (that technically should not have warped). Those are the ones I would most want to salvage. It does; however, answer my question about the glass pressing directly on the grooves, which would defeat the purpose and cause more problems than it would solve. However, I can't see how the grooves of some considerably warped records, even with groove guard (raised edges), would not touch the glass for at least some portion of the process. The grooves of a perfectly dished record might not touch the glass; but, often the geometry of a warped record isn't, ummm, perfect.
(Though I have considered your remarks, Marco, and retain hope), I'm not convinced the cost is worth it for, as the reviewer puts it, run of the mill warps. The average setup can easily play through run of the mill warps and those aren't the kind of warps I'd be likely to want to spend the time to fix. :scratch: But if you're going to jump in, make a video!! I wanna see! :)
Wait till marco gets his and see if it will fit a 7 incher in?
7 inch singles...ho.ho.ho
wishful thinking eh marco
Well I'm not cuttin' off three inches for anyone! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Well I'm not cuttin' off three inches for anyone! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Hmm! Reminds me of a line from a song performed by the jazz singer Marilyn Middleton-Pollock:
"... when he pulls out his big 10 inch ........... record of the band".
Can the Furutech deal with 10" LPs?
dave2010
18-03-2011, 11:33
Nah, not how I read it!
>>>yes I do, £1775 for flattening your entire collection...Here is a suggestion, but it might actually cost more than the amount mentioned.
http://hzproduct.com/pro/881/89081/road-roller-ca25d-ca30d-219874.html
Probably would do more than the 30,000 LPs discussed, though maybe not all in one pass.
:)
dave2010
18-03-2011, 11:39
Actually, here (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech6/destat.html) is a review of both the Destat and the LP flattener - done by 6moons audio. The reviewer says the flattener works well on LPs with "run-of-the-mill" warps, but there are some seriously warped ("pinch warped) LPs where it simply can't help at all. The article says, and I quote:
Besides the unit's limitations (well, every electric, mechanical and/or electronic product has limitations anyway), what really bugs me though - and it's one of the two reasons (the other is money) that keeps me from considering Furutech's unit - is that no mention is made of how it performs with 7" records (45rpm singles - my dad's given me about fifty of them; four have become pretzels over the years, while some others are stuff I'd rather dive into the about-to-go-KABOOM reactors at the Fukushima plant than listen to for more than half a nanosecond).Seems as though the flattening referred to in this case might just as well have been done with the heavy equipment I mentioned previously.
If the issue was that the centre hole wasn't in fact in the centre, then that can be remedied fairly simply, with care. However, the article does suggest that maybe the flattening was rather like flattening pizza dough, so that the disc acquired a larger diameter, and also was done irregularly. Yuk!
Here is a suggestion, but it might actually cost more than the amount mentioned.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
I think we can all surmise the effects of this device until the cow's come home, and not get any nearer to knowing its true efficacy...
The proof of the pudding, as they say, is in the listening (or in this case using), and so I'll come back and comment when the pudding has been eaten... ;)
Until then, if you haven't used it, shut it! :ner: :lol:
Marco.
That killed this thread stone dead buddy!
How much you charging then to flatten us?
I personally have found my oyaide mat and weight does a terrific job of flattening the vinyl, if your TT will accept the mat (any weight will work as long as its 350-400g weight) its recommended.
Terrifically overpriced too! Think of all the warped vinyl you could get for that...
EDIT: not suggesting your store is overpriced by the way.
Hi mate,
I know you haven't posted in a while, so is "Yomanze" your real first name? If not, what is (can't remember if you've ever told us this or not)? :)
Also, you need to add your basic location details to your profile, mate. Thanks in advance! :cool:
Marco.
That killed this thread stone dead buddy!
How much you charging then to flatten us?
Any small donation to my Bollinger fund will do ;)
Marco.
Terrifically overpriced too! Think of all the warped vinyl you could get for that...
EDIT: not suggesting your store is overpriced by the way.
The mat is £225 and the weight also £225, I suggested any weight as I too am a realist and know that is an awful lot of wonga just to get flat LP's hence the suggestion of a cheaper weight.
Hi mate,
I know you haven't posted in a while, so is "Yomanze" your real first name? If not, what is (can't remember if you've ever told us this or not)? :)
Also, you need to add your basic location details to your profile, mate. Thanks in advance! :cool:
Marco.
Boom, done!
Yes have had a quite long hiatus from forum posting of any kind. :P
Hi Neil,
Thanks for that. I know we've chatted before and that you also post on Wigwam, but since you've last visited we now like members to give their real first names and basic details of their location, as it engenders a community spirit.
Thanks for complying with our wishes, and do post as often as you can :)
Marco.
hifi_dave
19-03-2011, 22:08
Hi Neil,
Thanks for that. I know we've chatted before and that you also post on Wigwam, but since you've last visited we now like members to give their real first names and basic details of their location, as it engenders a community spirit.
Thanks for complying with our wishes, and do post as often as you can :)
Marco.
You never asked for my first name...:doh:
Yes I have, it's 'Daftee Dave', innit? :lol:
;)
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.