View Full Version : Music that demands attention; known as "difficult"
Neil McCauley
15-03-2011, 13:36
Although music is a, if not the major component of my life I find it both curious and intriguing that I don't always listen to music for sheer pleasure. Sometimes it's for distraction. Sometimes for other emotions that I can't quite pin down nor articulate. Anyway, to kick off this thread I'll start with a deep and mysterious recording that from time to time I return to. Here's what I wrote at the time, after my first immersion in it.
"If blues music really has a deep deep soul, then this may well be it. If you're expecting Chicago Blues, or Delta Blues, Johnny Winter and stuff like that, then look elsewhere. This is Gospel Blues. Another sub-genre altogether. If the newly buried could sing then they might well sound like this guy. The performances are compelling and in some cases chilling - if not harrowing. But for me, it's a fantastic ride and in some respects a privilege to be able to hear stuff like this. Highly recommended, but not for the novice or neophyte blues beginner `cos one blast of this could put the inexperienced blues listener right off; which would be a great shame."
Details here > http://amzn.to/eCOMDI
I have Sweeter As the Years Go By (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sweeter-Years-Blind-Willie-Johnson/dp/B000000G89/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1300197379&sr=1-6) and Praise God I'm Satisfied (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Praise-Satisfied-Blind-Willie-Johnson/dp/B000000G7W/ref=sr_1_9?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1300197379&sr=1-9).Bought because of the Led Zeppelin connection.
I find it fascinating listening to stuff like this as well as Robert Johnson,Son House etc.
In the classical world, I find some Shostakovich difficult and other composers can be challenging such as Ligeti, Glass, Adam etc. Some others, like Schoenberg, I find completely unlistenable! Certainly listening to such music can be distracting and useful for breaking out of the daily norms.
I have music on all the time be it the Radio or CD, Vinyl...etc. I do find when first listening to a new album during the first listen I don't take all that much in..it's usually the second or third listen when it sinks home. Sometimes I'm uite impatient with a new album and find myself wanting it to finish so I can put on something I know.
With music I tend to trust my muse, for me its like being with a friend it good company and then its the emotional connection. I can find this in a violin concerto, some primitive blues, to quite complex music modern fusion.
As Howard knows most of my music taste is not to easy on the ear, it requires a bit of time and I totally understand why most people do not like it. For me the deeper I got into music the more it opened my taste, and yet I see this mostly as a personal expression. I could not imagine music not being part of my life, in fact if i go without music for a few days I really start to miss it.
I tend to want to immerse myself in music as deep as I can, I guess thats why I can enjoy a lot of complex music, but as i said sometimes something quite simple can send a chill down my spine and move me I guess their is some kind of connection with my inner life
But of course their is plenty of music I do not get and perhaps never will
greendriver
15-03-2011, 16:41
Sometimes I find music noise, sometimes I find noise music. Thank the L for good headphones....
Hi Andrew could you please pop into the welcome section when you have time
I used to say all music is noise but is all noise music?
greendriver
15-03-2011, 16:57
Hi Andrew could you please pop into the welcome section when you have time
I used to say all music is noise but is all noise music?
Apologies for the lack of etti-q, and now done. Andrew
Cheers we basically a friendly lot here so introductions are a good way for the members to get to know you
The Grand Wazoo
15-03-2011, 19:12
I guessed you might be talking about Blind Willie Johnson there Howard - I'd put Tommy Johnson & especially Skip James into the same sort of category.
Being a bit of a Frank Zappa lover, I'm no stranger to challenging music and his work has led me to listen to some things that I'd never have dreamt of listening to otherwise. He was famously a fan of Edgard Varese............
50DmDaleJac
greendriver
15-03-2011, 19:19
If I hadn't played percussion in an orchestra, I would never have heard Martinu's Symphony no.3. Fantastic stuff, but not something I would ever have sought out
magiccarpetride
15-03-2011, 21:09
Although music is a, if not the major component of my life I find it both curious and intriguing that I don't always listen to music for sheer pleasure. Sometimes it's for distraction. Sometimes for other emotions that I can't quite pin down nor articulate.
Interesting take. I too sometimes put something on not because I want to be emotionally engrossed, but as a backdrop for some other activities. For example, early Weather Report. Kind of abstract music, but with some sort of a beat. Cold, cerebral, detached. Similar with a lot of ECM catalog (although some of those ECM musicians can get very grating; Terje Rypdal anyone?)
At the other end of the spectrum, I often find myself streaming somaFM Groove Salad (http://somafm.com/play/groovesalad), especially when performing some physical labor around the house...
Beechwoods
15-03-2011, 21:41
'Difficult' music is an odd category. I struggle at times to work out what is difficult about music described as difficult. Many minimalist / modernist composers for example may sound atonal, but subscribe to very traditional concepts of rhythm, making them for me, very easy to get into. There is beauty in the tone and melody of 'non-western' music with it's odd tunings and modalities. 'Noise' like those minimalists, thrives on order in chaos, and it's finding that order that often makes a lot of 'Noise' music so compelling. That and the sheer fucking aggression that you get sometimes; Merzbow can be thrillingly cathartic let's face it.
The early blues artist Howard linked to in the first post was entralling - listen to the samples - as much for the sense of the past speaking to the present. The early blues was completely un-selfconscious. These guys were recorded just doing what they did. They had little awareness of being part of a scene. They were singing as their parents did. They were taking the folk music of their parents and doing it their way. The other-worldness is partly down to the fact that their traditional was not of the western tradition, but two or three generations back of African folklore, with different tunings, different tonalities. We're so lucky they were even recorded. Many of the early blues players would not have been so lucky.
I must admit that I find the early 20th century fascinating for the collision between blues and folk; particularly in America. It was an age before genres became half-baked, before people started conforming to type, consciously or unconsciously. The story of the people who recorded these artists is an incredible one too, as is the story of how the recordings survived.
Neil McCauley
15-03-2011, 23:11
Turning out to be a decent thread so far. I hoped to broaden my outlook, and indeed I have. Thank you all. Hope we can continue the mutual 'education' until we get bored. So to keep the ball rolling, try this one for size!
http://www.allmusic.com/album/oar-r18603
I haven't suggest the above in order to appear odd, even though at first and possibly second glance it might seem that way. This is I feel unclassifiable and for most of us - myself included - indescribeable. Not sure if I admire it more than like it. But I guess that's not the point.
Meanwhile as I type this I'm listening to Beach Boys "Wipe Out" Hmm. Nice!
The Grand Wazoo
15-03-2011, 23:29
In Moby Grape, Jerry Miller & Don Stevenson held Skip Spence back a little in the songwriting department. A bit like Lennon/McCartney did to Harrison. In the case of The Beatles, that was perhaps a shame, as we found out with his solo albums but in the case of Moby Grape - I'm really not sure!
Neil McCauley
15-03-2011, 23:41
Nice one Mr Wazoo. I'm a serious J. Airplane fan and of course QMS, the Grape, Vanilla Fudge and so on. Hot Tuna too. Nice to find a fellow traveller in this respect on this forum. Have you heard the Moby Grape Live recordings? If so, any thoughts you might want to share?
Thanks
H
PS: Never really got into the 13th Floor Elevators. I tried. I really did, but ....... err ..... that's it.
Stratmangler
15-03-2011, 23:54
I'm also a bit of a Zappa fan, and someone who has been enormously affected by Zappa's influence is Steve Vai.
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I guessed you might be talking about Blind Willie Johnson there Howard - I'd put Tommy Johnson & especially Skip James into the same sort of category.
Being a bit of a Frank Zappa lover, I'm no stranger to challenging music and his work has led me to listen to some things that I'd never have dreamt of listening to otherwise. He was famously a fan of Edgard Varese............
50DmDaleJac
Now that is difficult listening for us miserable sinners, O Lordy Lordy - I prefer Son House.
Regarding other "difficult composers", well I love Ligeti and Glass, Shoenberg and Bartok. Have more difficulty with Webern and Steve Reich and have largely given up on Stockhausen.
Basically I just love music and will always seek out something new. When I used to go to the Proms, I would always include a 'difficult' piece to have a go with.
I have no trouble with Zappa but can somebody please explain to me why reviewers rave about Trout Mask Replica by Captain Beefheart. Try as I might, I just find it unlistenable. Suspect it might be a case of the 'Emporer's New Clothes'.
The Grand Wazoo
16-03-2011, 00:08
Nice one Mr Wazoo. I'm a serious J. Airplane fan and of course QMS, the Grape, Vanilla Fudge and so on. Hot Tuna too. Nice to find a fellow traveller in this respect on this forum. Have you heard the Moby Grape Live recordings? If so, any thoughts you might want to share?
Thanks
H
PS: Never really got into the 13th Floor Elevators. I tried. I really did, but ....... err ..... that's it.
I think Barry (also to be found prowling on AoS) would probably also be counted as having some of those tastes too. I can do the Elevators, but not Vanilla Fudge (sounding slightly more sludge than fudge to my ears!). Hot Tuna - yes! - though I only have 'America's Choice'. I have a prized (because I paid pennies for it) copy of Papa John Creach's 'Friends' album
http://theblues-thatjazz.com/ObrMuz/Blues/PapaJohnCreach/papajohncreach.jpg
I don't know the live Moby Grapes - I'll have to seek them out.
.......back to 'difficult' - I used to think this band were impenetrable:
TJERsXU5fl8
.....maybe not so much nowadays, though.
Neil McCauley
16-03-2011, 00:21
Ah ha. Okay. I have nearly everything by Hot Tuna both on digital and vinyl. If there is anything you want/need I'll be happy to send a digital copy.
I know what you mean re the Fudge. Yes it is a bit like that. Probably nostalgia working its way inside my head.
Recently went through a long and in the main happy period listening to my Family CDs. Live at the BBC Vol#3 is for fanatics only.
The Grand Wazoo
16-03-2011, 00:34
A very generous offer, thanks a lot, I may just take you up on that.
As a suggestion for 'difficult' or 'challenging'...
'Tilt' by 'Scott Walker', fits the bill IMHO
It was originally suggested to me by a Chord engineer for sound quality, as it is beautifully/obsessively recorded.
'Industrial Opera' is about as good as I can come up with, but that doesn't really cover it.
I must admit that after a while I've quite taken to it, but I wouldn't play it to visitors...unless I wanted to get rid of them ;)
Right now I am listening to Nare No Hate by Gonin-ish They combine elements of Thrash metal Jazz fusion and progressive metal done with a mix of Japanese death vocals and cleaner Japanese vocals. The reason i love this music is for the energy, ultra tight playing and time changes. But except for most people this is just going sound like noise
84PE-vPQd8g
I was hoping to play this at Scalford and scare everyone!
Another band I love is Behold the Arctopus and enjoy John Zorn as well In fact John Zorn is an amazing musician his catalogue is very diverse
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2161&highlight=john+zorn
WOStantonCS100
11-04-2011, 01:06
John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" and "My Favorite Things" are, to me, very listenable, even beautiful.
I finally got to a point where I could ingest "Interstellar Space"; but, after years of trying, I'm still not there with "Om". Challenging is an understatement, for me anyway. Some folks think of Miles Davis in the same way. But, to me "Bitches Brew" is nothing compared to the far reaches of space that John Coltrane warped to.
Favorite things and Africa Brass for me. I agree i find it hard to appreciate some of the free stuff. Im just to much of a pleb.
Vinyleyes
11-04-2011, 03:44
Really enjoying this thread ... it has put me on to people I never heard of and intend to explore further, especially Varese :-) .... and it's nice to find out I'm not the only 60's West Coast refugee listener on here .. Just bought Happy Trails last month on 180g vinyl .. sat back .. and turned it UP !! ,,, superb .. :cool:
The Grand Wazoo
11-04-2011, 07:26
Happy Trails - I may just have to play that tonight. Actually, I prefer their first album more but I've not heard Happy Trails for a couple of years.
As for Edgard Varese, it's pretty easy to get his complete works as there's only about 3 hrs worth - a double CD. There are several available, I think.
Has anyone tried Portishead: Third? A difficult listen at first, but some of it grows on you. While songs like The Rip prove to be as beautiful as anything from their first two albums, Machine Gun is still pretty unlistenable for me.
Machine gun is my favorite track.
Machine gun is my favorite track.
+1, Almost easy listening in the context of this thread ;)
R.E. John Coltrane, I find 'Ascension' a little impenetrable :scratch:
Reid Malenfant
11-04-2011, 09:41
Whatever it was that Nick (Beechwoods) played on CD in the AoS room near the end of the day at Scalford this year :eek:
:mental: :lol:
I'm not sure about difficult, it was damn near impossible!
Beechwoods
11-04-2011, 09:54
:lol:
That was an epic moment Mark!
It was a little thing called 'Fire Beats' by Venetian Snares & Speedranch, off their album 'Making Orange Things'. Truly music for colonic irrigation :)
Reid Malenfant
11-04-2011, 09:58
Ah that's it, cheers for the reminder. I can honestly say i have never heard anything like it - EVER!
:D
It was a little thing called 'Fire Beats' by Venetian Snares & Speedranch, off their album 'Making Orange Things'. Truly music for colonic irrigation :)
I've just listened to it on Spotify. I'll never think badly of Machine Gun again :eek:
Good grief, has anyone listened to Unborn Baby? LOL!
:lol:
That was an epic moment Mark!
It was a little thing called 'Fire Beats' by Venetian Snares & Speedranch, off their album 'Making Orange Things'. Truly music for colonic irrigation :)
I caught a bit of Venetian Snares at the Bloc weekender...a bit like an angle grinder being thrown down a lift shaft ;)
A few days ago I popped into Rise Records at Warwick and picked up this for £3...very odd indeed :eyebrows:
Gonjasufi - The Caliph's Tea Party
X6A8xzp-s-M
Really enjoying this thread ... it has put me on to people I never heard of and intend to explore further, especially Varese :-) .... and it's nice to find out I'm not the only 60's West Coast refugee listener on here .. Just bought Happy Trails last month on 180g vinyl .. sat back .. and turned it UP !! ,,, superb .. :cool:
Is that Quicksilver Messenger Service 'Happy Trails'? If so, I only listen to the track occupying the whole of side 2: 'Who do you Love?'.
:lol:
That was an epic moment Mark!
It was a little thing called 'Fire Beats' by Venetian Snares & Speedranch, off their album 'Making Orange Things'. Truly music for colonic irrigation :)
It was indeed a "moment" Nick, though I'm not sure my immediate feeling was "epic" :lol:
Still, as Mastercard says - Looks on everyone's faces? ...Priceless! :D
Beechwoods
12-04-2011, 07:58
:lolsign:
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