Pro Audio; better bang for buck (?) [Archive]

Welder

14-03-2011, 17:16

What were you buying when Naim and Linn were being touted as the ultimate audio by the Hi Fi Press and the audiophile community?

I’m curious as many of the Hi Fi enthusiasts I knew at the time went for Threshold, Exposure, Quantum, Crimson and lesser hyped brands or built their own from articles in Electronics Weekly in the amplification area and Thorens, Michel or Rock decks with Grace and Hadcock arms.

Some of those who praised and promoted the Linn/Naim combination seem to have changed their minds yet are still promoting themselves as the final arbiters in the “best sound” stakes but with a diffferent set of products.
Has their hearing improved or are there other factors to take into account?

Interestingly, those that I’m still in contact with from that era who dismissed the Linn/Naim fanaticism at the time have now moved into Pro Audio gear stating that while it may not have quite the glamour associated with many of the current Hi End favorites, you get more of what you need and less of what you don’t with Pro gear at a far better price.

For me, Pro Audio gear and self built would seem to have a lot going for it, particularly given the prices of much of the Hi End audiophile gear.

DSJR

14-03-2011, 17:40

You can get a really good sound for little money (relatively speaking) from much pro gear, 'cos professionals won't pay over-inflated prices for dressed up cr@p to be honest..

Sorry Hamish, but look at Adam speakers. the pro ones look utilitarian, but are great and not silly price. Adam were surprised how much more profit they could make in the domestic arena, although they had to bling up their boxes a little in the process. Apparently, the pro active models are excellent and quite reasonable value for money..

If you have a single source but want an equally simple line buffer to drive remote amps, the SPL Volume 2 for £250 or so and if you need same with a DAC, the TC Electronics BMC 2 for well under £300 is apparently also good.

Re amps, many pro models were a bit raw for domestic use I believe, but the HH ones may be tamed possibly as well as some of the reference level Crowns amongst others. Fortunately, Quad 405-2's and 606/707/909 models are far better than many audiophools think, although the pro and broadcast sector took them to their hearts, along with the dedicated pro models they made.

Old pro rumble-boxes, sorry, turntable systems are more tricky, as ploughing the needle through the groove rather than finesse was the order of the day, no matter how cool they look now. I accept the odd EMT or two - used on the rack/trolley designed for the purpose - can sound outstanding (I'm told not to use them sat on a shelf by their rack-mounts). Anyway, so many studios used techies of various types later on and we all know how good a fettled techie can sound :lolsign:

John

14-03-2011, 17:54

Yes we often get fooled (or should I say I get fooled) by the marketing, perhaps we should start a thread to recommend good pro gear

technobear

14-03-2011, 18:14

One of the issues with pro-audio gear is that you generally don't get remote control.

Barry

14-03-2011, 18:21

I'm inclined to agree. Certainly 'pro gear' is designed to be reliable and whilst not having the most jaw-dropping specifications, the specifications are conservative, and anyway we all know that specs are not the 'be all and end all'.

Equipment used by professionals has been chosen by its proven track record of quality, performance, ruggedness and reliability.

Looking at some of the equipment I use, a good measure of it is pro-gear:

Quad ELS '57s - used by Philips to QA their classical recordings and by the BBC to monitor their world service broadcasts.

Quad 303, 50D, 50E and 520 power amplifiers. All used by tye BBC; I have two Quad 50E amps stamped 'BBC', and my 520f is an ex-studio item. My local cinema uses a pair of Quad 510 amps to power the sound channels.

EMT 930 turntable (usually with 929 arm and EMT cartridge). Mine is ex-Radio Hungary and the BBC used many (as well as the 948 and 950 models) as did the Italian RAI. You will find that the great majority of African countries' radio stations use 930s as they just go on and on with virtually no maintenance (they were designed to be used 24/7 with just an annual service).

Thorens TD124/II turntable. Used by many broadcast studios for their 'instant cuing' facility. Certainly BBC Machester used several.

SME 3009/II pick up arms. Surprisingly the BBC used many of these with Technics SP10 decks in their Radio 3 studios. They were slightly modified: the catch of the arm rest was modified with a rubber 'claw' replacing the throw over link of the orginal. It was found that when the decks were moved about on their trollies, vibrations would 'rattle' the arm catches open and the arm would swing about. SME arms are used in record archives and libraries and were used in the quality control suites of many record companies.

Nagra reel-to-reel tape recorders. Always designed for the professional market, all models have been used by professionals (including custom models designed solely for use by the CIA). The BBC used to use many Nagra IV-L (mono) machines as well as the Nagra IV-S (stereo), for field recordings and the IV-S is the standard machine used for location dialog recording. My Nagra IV-S is an ex-film unit.

Denon DL103C Designed in the early '60s by Denon for NHK, the Japanese broadcast authority, and still a dammned fine cartridge today.

John

14-03-2011, 18:22

Is that really a issue Chris?

technobear

14-03-2011, 18:35

Is that really a issue Chris?

For some it is a major issue.

Until recently I have lived happily without it on my Croft but now that I have it again via the Audiolab I am using it a great deal.

Welder

14-03-2011, 18:41

I was rather thinking of more modern kit tbh :rolleyes:……………..not that I don’t appreciate that many love the old stuff :lolsign:
My current nomination;
Metric Halo ULN8 DSP.

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 18:41

I was going to use the KSA250 to drive the bass drivers in my active system until i got the new speakers built, but i couldn't justify it or the electricity :eyebrows:

So instead i hooked up what i would eventually be using, my Mackie M3000 (http://www.mackie.com/products/mseries/index.html) power amplifier. Happy as a pig in sh*t, iron fist & velvet glove spring to mind.. Not forgetting how efficient it is with it's triple rail class H output..

I get the feeling John might have been thinking more along these lines than normal hifi equipment :scratch: I could be wrong though as i have been previously :eyebrows:

flapland

14-03-2011, 18:44

I have a pair of Adams Compact Classic which are semi bling versions of the S2A I think. I bought the 2nd hand and paid £900 with decent stands. List I think was close to £3000 but the current S2X are £2049 so a fair bit difference for the pro version.

I had a MC2 power a while ago and it wasn't far off Bryston 3BST quality. However it wasn't as well built as the Bryston nor had a 20 year warranty. Also Bryston cross both markets.

John

14-03-2011, 18:44

Nope open minded to this Mark.

Welder

14-03-2011, 18:47

Good grief Mark, you’re the first person I have come across on a Hi Fi forum that even knows of the brand :eek:
Yes, more the sort of thing I had in mind ;)

I’m going to add Volt drivers to the list; no surprise there……………:rolleyes:

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 18:52

Well i'm going to need an amp capable of 1.2KW RMS per channel into 2 ohms & i really didn't fancy another Krell :eyebrows: I just couldn't justify the leccy bill or the repair bill if it all went pear shaped..

The Mackie is a cracker, ok it's only being fed sub 110Hz but i certainly like what it does in the way of bass grip & extension :)

The Vinyl Adventure

14-03-2011, 19:11

Sorry Hamish, but look at Adam speakers. the pro ones look utilitarian, but are great and not silly price. Adam were surprised how much more profit they could make in the domestic arena, although they had to bling up their boxes a little in the process. Apparently, the pro active models are excellent and quite reasonable value for money..

No need to apologise ... I'm well aware of what I bought an how much cheaper the closest pro equivalent is ...
There are differences though ... Possibly not differences that add up to nearly £3k over the pro version ...
But... And this is where I seem to deviate from your average hifi enthusiast ... I want Hannah to be happy with the system too ... And that's a tough job!
I am happy to pay what some might concider over the odds for looks that please Hannah AND a sound that pleases me!
The pro ones would have been a big no no!
and there is of course the price I paid for them compared to the rrp ... That also makes me feel a lot happier about it all! :)

John

14-03-2011, 19:26

Ahh to many John's bloody hell sorry

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 19:32

Ahh to many John's bloody hell sorry
:lolsign: No worries, just be pleased your name isn't Dave :eek:

Reid Malenfant

14-03-2011, 19:42

Actually i guess i should also have mentioned the Behringer CX3400 active crossovers i also use in the main setup ;) I can definately hear what the Behringers don't add to the proceedings, unlike the passive Yamaha crossovers used in the NS1000M :rolleyes:

There really isn't much comparison in all honesty. Active crossovers (done right) with drivers that have a wide bandwidth with no breakup in the passband & a flat response will sound a good deal better than the passive crossover equivalent imo...

Hell, i'm listening to it now so i guess i should know :eyebrows:

Techno Commander

14-03-2011, 21:02

kininigin

14-03-2011, 21:23

i bought some budget pro active monitors (Tapco's)to see if they offered better sound to what i had previously (arcam + Wharfedales) and there was no contest.

I thought that they would be moved on as my system progressed but with each upgrade i've done they have held there own,i payed £170 for a s/h pair.

Techno Commander

14-03-2011, 21:44

Behringer B3030A (http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/B3030A.aspx) active monitors offer kevlar cone woofer and ribbon tweeter for around £250.

Neil McCauley

14-03-2011, 21:57

A lot of the pro or (semi pro/home studio) kit offers excellent sound for a sensible budget. As mentioned, build quality is usually far in excess of most home hifi products. A lot of this kit is designed to run for 12 hours flat out, then thrown in to the back of a transit van.

Front room aesthetics are usually some way down the list of priorities of the original design brief. Noisy fans can also be a problem. Changing these for low noise items from Papst can usually make a huge difference. Another method of easy improvement is removing the input op-amps and fitting a suitable socket. This opens up a whole world of op-amp rolling. I often favour Burr Brown FET input devives. :)

If you want a real "giant killer amp, look out for a Crown DC300 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMCRON-CROWN-DC-300A-SERIESII-LEGENDARY-MCINTOSH-KRELL-/190512265771?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item2c5b6a7a2b). This is a veritable "laboratory grade" muscle amp. They can be had for about £250, but expect to perform a full recap on a cheap one.

JBL studio monitors are another source of excellent speakers (if you like their sound).
JBL amps (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JBL-Urei-6290-Power-Amplifier-/190512007652?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item2c5b6689e4) are also rather good.

Well, good evening Mr Commander. I am in general agreement with you on all points. Yes, the Amcron is a real cracker. The JAM used dozens of them when Muscle-Music were their PA sub-contractors. My guess is that their choice was influenced by ruggedness and ease of servicing. My ventures into Pro gear are limited to Benchmark DACS & DAC/preamps. Built to last, and last, and last. The problem is that the studio retailers can sell and make a profit at less than my buy-in price. Market forces and all that.

I believe there is massive potential for audiophile buyers to benefit from state-of-the-art studio gear. However the route to market needs to be sorted. Studio retailers are in the main a friendly bunch. BUT, and it's a big but, you are expected to have a reasonable working knowledge of studio jargon and have shortlisted the brands that interest you. In short, do your homework. Don't expect a warm arm around the shoulder. That's not their culture.

Regards. HP

DSJR

14-03-2011, 22:06

No need to apologise ... I'm well aware of what I bought an how much cheaper the closest pro equivalent is ...
There are differences though ... Possibly not differences that add up to nearly £3k over the pro version ...
But... And this is where I seem to deviate from your average hifi enthusiast ... I want Hannah to be happy with the system too ... And that's a tough job!
I am happy to pay what some might concider over the odds for looks that please Hannah AND a sound that pleases me!
The pro ones would have been a big no no!
and there is of course the price I paid for them compared to the rrp ... That also makes me feel a lot happier about it all! :)

Hamish mate, you're happy, wifey's happy and believe me, this latter's the most important of them all :lolsign: Glad you're enjoying your music - even Ash rates Adam monitors and from him, that's saying something :lol:

DSJR

14-03-2011, 22:13

A lot of the pro or (semi pro/home studio) kit offers excellent sound for a sensible budget. As mentioned, build quality is usually far in excess of most home hifi products. A lot of this kit is designed to run for 12 hours flat out, then thrown in to the back of a transit van.

Front room aesthetics are usually some way down the list of priorities of the original design brief. Noisy fans can also be a problem. Changing these for low noise items from Papst can usually make a huge difference. Another method of easy improvement is removing the input op-amps and fitting a suitable socket. This opens up a whole world of op-amp rolling. I often favour Burr Brown FET input devives. :)

If you want a real "giant killer amp, look out for a Crown DC300 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/AMCRON-CROWN-DC-300A-SERIESII-LEGENDARY-MCINTOSH-KRELL-/190512265771?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item2c5b6a7a2b). This is a veritable "laboratory grade" muscle amp. They can be had for about £250, but expect to perform a full recap on a cheap one.

JBL studio monitors are another source of excellent speakers (if you like their sound).
JBL amps (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JBL-Urei-6290-Power-Amplifier-/190512007652?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item2c5b6689e4) are also rather good.

The DC300A was actually the worst sounding of the three at the time (fingers down a blackboard stylee), the D150A being better for domestic use and the D-60 being thought the best even though the power was brickwalled at 35WPC in non-bridged form.

The caps Crown used were the best quality they could get and the three sets of 7,000uF mallory caps on my D-60's all measured at or slightly more than this value after nearly forty years. the DC300A may well respond to a darned good sort-out and re-setup of voltages inside, but don't spend too much, as I suspect a Quad 606mk2 would easily better it for sonics ;)

Amcron, Crown - all the same to me ;) I'd love to hear their later reference amps that were cheaper than, and claimed to beat, the early Krells.....

kininigin

14-03-2011, 22:19

technobear

14-03-2011, 22:20

And let us not forget headphones...

I use Audio-Technica ATH-M50's. They are much cheaper than the 'audiofool' offerings but they sure don't sound cheaper.

MartinT

14-03-2011, 22:51

my Mackie M3000 power amplifier

Looks interesting (not that I need *that* much power). What does it sound like?

Marco

15-03-2011, 00:31

Hi Chris,

And let us not forget headphones...

I use Audio-Technica ATH-M50's. They are much cheaper than the 'audiofool' offerings but they sure don't sound cheaper.

You wanna try a pair of (new production) Koss PRO-4AAs. I bought a pair recently (£70 new) and they outperform, musically, most "audiofool offerings" I've heard, as long as you can handle their somewhat extreme weight.

There's a long thread in The Artist's Palette about them :)

Marco.

aquapiranha

15-03-2011, 08:32

I have always said that pro gear is where the VFM is at. In fact, I would go so far to say that 'pro' should stand for 'proper'!

There are a different set of priorities entirely for the pro market as pointed out already. Besides, I have never been impressed by the tricks manufacturers use to appeal to the audiophile, things like inch thick alloy front panels (why? why not make all the panels the same thickness?) blingy speaker connectors ( I much prefer speak-on which rule out shorting the leads and are easily 'good' enough from a technical pov) and of course there is the ruggedness that you often do not find in 'audiofool' targeted gear. That brings us finally to the price, which more often than not for pro gear has not had an 'exclusivity' tax added simply to re-assure the audiophile that the thing they are buying is more expensive and therefore must be better than anything else.

I aim in the distant future to run a pair of big Tannoys actively, and to do that I will be looking at the pro market to get the stuff I need, such as amps and active crossover (probably crown and maybe Altec or JBL crossovers).

Marco

15-03-2011, 09:35

I aim in the distant future to run a pair of big Tannoys....

Ha - I knew it would happen eventually! :eyebrows:

Good luck with the different approach, Steve - I'm sure it'll pay dividends :cool:

Marco.

kininigin

15-03-2011, 13:46

just a quick thread drift,would it be possible/worth while to upgrade some of the parts in the amp section of active monitors?

I suspect there are cheap parts in what i have and i don't have the money to fully upgrade.

can anyone tell if this is an avenue worth exploring?

The tapco's i own have been discontinued so would a schematic help?

Could i put in a better psu,caps ect? i have very limited knowledge in these things,as you can probaly tell :)

technobear

15-03-2011, 14:20

can anyone tell if this is an avenue worth exploring?

The tapco's i own have been discontinued so would a schematic help?

Could i put in a better psu,caps ect? i have very limited knowledge in these things,as you can probaly tell :)

A schematic would certainly help :)

Can you open one up and take some sharp photos?

If they contain volume/gain pots, these should be worth getting rid of (replace with an equivalent resistor) or replacing with stepped attenuators if you need them.

One constraint is space. Better capacitors are often larger than the types they replace.

kininigin

15-03-2011, 14:33

A schematic would certainly help :)

Can you open one up and take some sharp photos?

If they contain volume/gain pots, these should be worth getting rid of (replace with an equivalent resistor) or replacing with stepped attenuators if you need them.

One constraint is space. Better capacitors are often larger than the types they replace.

hi chris,

I'll try and get a schematic,as for photos my camera is crap so will have to borrow one.

Im on holiday this sat so will probaly be next week for the photos.

kininigin

15-03-2011, 14:47

just sent an email to mackie regarding schematic,cannot seem to find anything on the web.

smithy

15-03-2011, 15:31

I use a couple of pro amps , a Crown K2 and a MC2 650 they arent pretty but they certainly deliver the goods.If you a building an active system they are well worth looking out for usually about £350 each used.

kininigin

15-03-2011, 17:09

just been sent the schematic but had to sign a disclaimer.

Im not sure if i can post this on a public forum.

This is the disclaimer.

Please read, fill out, and reply to the information below for schematics.

PLEASE READ AND FOLLOW THE BELOW DISCLAIMER

Be sure to respond to: techmail@loudtechinc.com.

THIS PROCESS TAKES FROM 24 TO 72 HOURS PLEASE DO NOT RESUBMIT.

!!!KEEP THIS EMAIL THREAD COMPLETE OR THE REQUEST WILL BE DISREGARDED.

THE SIMPLEST WAY TO DO THIS IS TO JUST REPLY TO THIS EMAIL WITH THE REQUIRED INFORMATION!!!

YOU MUST NOT DELETE ANY CONTENT OR THE REQUEST WILL BE DISREGARDED.

We must have you read and agree to the below liability disclaimer to be sent schematics. Due to liability we need you to be aware there is the potential for LETHAL voltages in this type of product PLEASE DO NOT WORK ON YOUR EQUIPMENT UNLESS YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO DO SO!!!

If you are absolutely sure that you are qualified to safely do this type of repair and also agree to not redistribute without the prior written consent of Loud Technologies Inc., we will grant one set of schematics if available.

We are not able to provide component level support as we are application based technicians, but we can provide you the schematic. Service manuals and bulletins are available only to our authorized service centers due to proprietary information content.

You must reply with the model, serial number and your agreement to this email.

IMPORTANT!!! You will void the warranty if service is performed by any Non-authorized Service Center or Technician. Also note we will not be able to provide component level support regarding such repairs.

I (darren williams) agree to the above distribution and liability disclaimers.

Model: (tapco S-8)

Serial number: (0629)

John

15-03-2011, 17:09

My speakers are apadted from the pro world

technobear

15-03-2011, 18:58

My speakers are apadted from the pro world

Actually... so are mine! :)

Techno Commander

15-03-2011, 20:00

And mine. :)

DSJR

15-03-2011, 20:13

Mine were USED in the pro world - as headphone amps :)

Reid Malenfant

15-03-2011, 20:20

Looks interesting (not that I need *that* much power). What does it sound like?
It sounds pretty good actually Martin ;) Just logged in & already a bit mashed as i have been sorting out the garden & having a dirty great big burn up :eyebrows:

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Douglas Selfs' articles on power amplifiers but Mackie appear to have gone & done it correctly, they have used schottky rectifiers as commutating diodes & high voltage ones as well :)
As schottkys are majority carriers there is a lack of reverse switching current fed to the diodes when they go reversed biased, IE switch to the higher voltage rail ;) They don't need the charge swept from them like epitaxial diodes.

In effect it sounds like a well developed clean class B amp, but with 450W RMS per channel into 8 ohms... Nuts :eyebrows:

kininigin

15-03-2011, 22:09

A schematic would certainly help :)

Can you open one up and take some sharp photos?

If they contain volume/gain pots, these should be worth getting rid of (replace with an equivalent resistor) or replacing with stepped attenuators if you need them.

One constraint is space. Better capacitors are often larger than the types they replace.

here are the schematics.Im still not sure if i can post these on a public forum,if it is not suitable then can a mod remove them cheers.

MartinT

16-03-2011, 07:08

I'm not sure if you are familiar with Douglas Selfs' articles on power amplifiers but Mackie appear to have gone & done it correctly, they have used schottky rectifiers as commutating diodes & high voltage ones as well :)

Nice. I've read some of his articles and he is well regarded in the field. That Mackie looks like a bargain, especially if you have inefficient speakers.

Techno Commander

16-03-2011, 09:48

Some more bargains here.

Monoblock power amps (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Otis-Monoblock-Power-amps-Pair-very-loud-/150576166517?pt=UK_Consumer_Professional_RL&hash=item230f09f675)

Pair of 5Kw mono blocks (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5000w-TECHRON-7790-monoblock-power-amplifier-MRI-Club-/220754520699?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement _Equipment_ET&hash=item3365feaa7b) :) Spec Sheet (http://www.aetechron.com/7700.pdf)

200W Mosfet amp (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MXF-200-mosfet-amplifier-/170614034073?pt=UK_Consumer_Professional_RL&hash=item27b9638e99) These are rather good, not unlike the old Maplin Mosfet amps. I doubt it will make £80. Here is its 600W big brother (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/B-K-Electronics-MXF-600-Amp-Amplifier-VGC-/170614854413?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item27b970130d) for £150.

3 x 200WPC power amps for £240 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Studio-Master-2-400w-800b-Power-Amplifier-/220754413436?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Amplifiers_RL&hash=item3365fd077c). Ideal for going active on the cheap

Reid Malenfant

16-03-2011, 20:47

Nice. I've read some of his articles and he is well regarded in the field. That Mackie looks like a bargain, especially if you have inefficient speakers.
I think i picked it up as ex display but new (at an audio fair) & advertised on fleabay for a not large amount of £300 :eyebrows: Pretty good bang per Watt at 10p per Watt ;)

John

16-03-2011, 21:02

I still got Tim's MAD chameleon 1400s power amplifier
http://www.gbaudio.co.uk/data/1400s.htm Lots of power detail speed and also clean Ugly as hell and nearly as good as my tube amp, but still rather the tube amp

Rare Bird

16-03-2011, 21:39

I've always liked the Quad '240' shame they were'nt many

BTH K10A

16-03-2011, 22:44

The DC300A was actually the worst sounding of the three at the time (fingers down a blackboard stylee), the D150A being better for domestic use and the D-60 being thought the best even though the power was brickwalled at 35WPC in non-bridged form.

The caps Crown used were the best quality they could get and the three sets of 7,000uF mallory caps on my D-60's all measured at or slightly more than this value after nearly forty years. the DC300A may well respond to a darned good sort-out and re-setup of voltages inside, but don't spend too much, as I suspect a Quad 606mk2 would easily better it for sonics ;)

Amcron, Crown - all the same to me ;) I'd love to hear their later reference amps that were cheaper than, and claimed to beat, the early Krells.....

I've got one of the D-60's, it's a great little amp. I should keep an eye out for another so I can run a stero pair in bridged mode.