Strange things happening in the world of computer audio [Archive]

Reid Malenfant

05-03-2011, 14:26

So here's the thing (and I have been playing with it all morning) I am preferring the sound I am getting from this set-up, than from my Musical Fidelity A3 CD player.

That can't be right, surely?
Well this is what the file audio boys keep saying :eyebrows: Personally i have zero experience in this department, i wouldn't mind getting a listen on my own system though.

What i can say is that even MP3 files that i have on my PC fed to a USB to S/PDIF & into my dCS gear does sound significantly better than it ever did by being decoded on the onboard DAC :)

DSJR

05-03-2011, 14:49

You'll probably find it's a mixture of crude design implementation of the DAC or output stage in the CD player, coupled with other real-time reading issues in red-book playback which are got over in a streeming solution.

Sorry to be so negative about your CD player, but the difference between a £500 and £3000 model is usually a few hundred on the case and a few pence (often I reckon) on components and any extra wiring used.....

MF do a "race-tuning" service for many of their legacy products, so it may be worth a gander at their site to see what they weould do to your player, which I believe is nigh on ten years old now?

Welder

05-03-2011, 15:06

The thing is, most of us have got exactly that type of CD player (a relatively small amount spent on components compared to casework)
What would be interesting is to see at what price point/construction file audio doesn’t kick a CD player into touch compared to the equivalent amount spent on a file system.

Tim

05-03-2011, 18:43

Sorry to be so negative about your CD player, but the difference between a £500 and £3000 model is usually a few hundred on the case and a few pence (often I reckon) on components and any extra wiring used.....

Not at all, no need to be sorry - I'm just pleased to have improved my sound considerably, for a relatively modest outlay - it was just a surprise that's all. But then again, as you rightly point out it is quite aged now, being manufactured in June 2000.

A MF 'Fine-Tune' for the A3 is £399.00 and to be honest listening to my system at the moment, I would doubt that £399.00 would be money well spent? eBay here I come I reckon. I was only using a bog standard USB cable and streaming wirelessly too, which is another thing. I found this morning I prefer the music coming direct from the hard drive as opposed to streaming it wirelessly. I can't nail exactly why, it's just more pleasing. I hadn't done this before, but put a load of music on the hard drive, so I could do the next bit..... which was even more fun!

This afternoon I had the Netbook/Caiman hooked up to a dealers Bryston B26 PreAmp and Bryston 4B SST2 with a pair of PMC PB1's - my goodness that made me grin. I asked them if they would mind me staying there for the weekend :)

Alex_UK

05-03-2011, 18:57

This afternoon I had the Netbook/Caiman hooked up to a dealers Bryston B26 PreAmp and Bryston 4B SST2 with a pair of PMC PB1's - my goodness that made me grin. I asked them if they would mind me staying there for the weekend :)

I think I warned you this forum would be expensive, Tim! :eek: :lol: I thought you'd only be buying lots more music! :)

Welder

05-03-2011, 19:01

That didn't take long then Tim :lolsign:

Tim

05-03-2011, 19:26

That didn't take long then Tim :lolsign:

No it didn't you buggers :lol:

I thought you'd only be buying lots more music! :). . . and yes Alex, so did I :( but then again, you are a long time dead :)

DSJR

05-03-2011, 20:14

It may be worth finding out what's done in the MF tune-up and seeing of you can do some or all of it yourself for a fraction of the price. The Rock grotto mods to the X10D cost £65 with new valves (paying someone else to select and supply the bits), yet the MF one which isn't hugely different I think, is over £125 as someone else has to do the soldering.

A Rega Apollo or Saturn may make a quirky yet better sounding alternative possibly, for mechanical CD playback. A vintage Sony 555ES is cheap enough still, incredible mechanically and the electricals can be race tuned to improve stability in the digital output too.

StanleyB

05-03-2011, 21:35

So here's the thing (and I have been playing with it all morning) I am preferring the sound I am getting from this set-up, than from my Musical Fidelity A3 CD player.

That can't be right, surely?

There have been numerous owners of far more expensive CD players than yours who have mentioned that the Caiman was the better performer on the day. So there is no reason for you to be disheartened with your CDP. It takes a special kind of CDP to outperform the Caiman after all :).

magiccarpetride

07-03-2011, 21:26

Well at the moment I'm listening to Tina Dico which is streaming wirelessly from my music server, via a small 10" Samsung Netbook into a Caiman DAC. The only changes to my system lately have been the addition of the Caiman and a pair of Mark Grant G1000HD cables.

So here's the thing (and I have been playing with it all morning) I am preferring the sound I am getting from this set-up, than from my Musical Fidelity A3 CD player.

That can't be right, surely?

Leaving the Caiman aside for a moment, I'd like to reiterate the fact that the world of digital transport is still in its very early infancy. When it comes to the so-called "digital pathway", we have barely scratched the surface. Meaning, there is incredible room for improvement, and I'm sure we'll be seeing some significant betterment of the digital source based music reproduction in the upcoming years.

The "digital pathway" is the path that electronic bits and bytes traverse from the file all the way to the digital-to-analog conversion chip inside the DAC. Along that pathway, many things can get clobbered. We're gathering more and more evidence nowadays that this 'clobbering' is of a rather cumulative nature.

Any time we manage to appease some of those artifacts that pollute the signal as it travels towards the DAC chip, we end up with a noticeably better sound. And like I said, we have barely scratched the surface at this point.

There is no doubt in my mind that we will reach a point not that far into the future where it will become feasible to get yourself a file based transport that will outperform even the most esoteric CD players. The bottleneck will then be in the DAC arena.

Tim

08-03-2011, 00:26

Well I need no further convincing, having spent nearly the whole weekend listening and comparing, the A3 cannot get near the Caiman and my Netbook - it still gets my head scratching though :scratch:

But the main thing I really noticed yesterday was no listening fatigue after all day - I just wanted to keep playing music and putting stuff on, to see what it sounded like. So my CD player is history and getting sold very soon, no going back from this point. I'm going to invest in a higher quality amp, instead of a CDP/Amp and so far, I'm liking Bryston :)

StanleyB

08-03-2011, 07:19

Filterlab

08-03-2011, 09:03

...I am preferring the sound I am getting from this set-up, than from my Musical Fidelity A3 CD player.

That can't be right, surely?

Yep, it can.

My last CD player was a Musical Fidelity A3.5CD, and I use the word 'last' because I won't bother with a CD player again. The comparison between the 3.5 and my iMac can only be equated to night and day (with the iMac being the day bit). In fact, when I first tried audio from my iMac, I didn't even use an external DAC, I literally plugged the headphone socket into my amplifier - and it sounded better than the 3.5! When I added a DAC (an Apogee something-or-other) it positively destroyed the 3.5 and secured my future audio well in the computer camp.

Since then I've discovered lots about correct implementation, experimenting with loads of different software helped enormously. I use XLD to import (which checks for correct import against a massive database of imports from the same disc by users across the world) in AIFF format and I use Cog to play back. Fiddling with various codecs can yield changes, but I've found that AIFF 16/44.1 on import and either 16/44.1 or 32/88.2 (or 176.4 if you like the effect of 4x oversampling) on playback is as good an output as one is likely to get.

The main thing a computer doesn't have to do is read the information newly on-the-fly as it were; every time a CD player plays, it's taking the information live from a spinning disc each and every time, as the disc becomes dirty or damaged, the error correction has to work harder and compensate for more. With an audio file, it's the same every time its played, as long as the original import is spot on (hence the database correction being so valuable, as well as CD Paranoia), then so will the playback be every time, and even though the playback stream comes from a hard drive, it's actually played back from RAM - so no moving parts to intervene anywhere along the way.

Of course, there will be a tiny amount of interference caused by the displays, other software and the various other components, but if you can hear these I'd be amazed, the background is so inky black and silent on properly undertaken computer based audio that only the music shines through. If you wanted to get truly 'high-end nutter' serious about it, I guess you could mount your sound card out of the main computer (tricky with a laptop or iMac, but perfectly easy on a Mac Pro or PC tower) to isolate it from interference, and then apply all the normal tweakery to try and help it along, but whether it would make viable improvements in anyone's guess. :)

MartinT

08-03-2011, 09:08

Tim, are you comparing the Samsung/Caiman with the MF using its internal DACs? Have you tried routing S/PDIF co-ax/optical from the MF to the Caiman? That may give you a more even-keeled comparison.

Ergoline

08-03-2011, 22:09

Welcome to the lovely physical-media free world! (Unless you have LPs, cassettes, reel-to-reel, etc. :)) I've never heard the Caiman DAC before, but there really are some wonderful DACs out there that don't cost anywhere near as much as a comparable CD player. As others have said, there really are some wonderful options for little cash when you don't have to pay for fancy casework, a disc transport, and audiophile pretensions. :doh: I'm glad I have some friends who learned this the hard way so that I don't have to.

I'd go so far as to say that everyone should sell their CD transports, rip their collection, and buy a handful of cheap DACs. Keep the one that tickles your fancy and sell the ones that don't. (I'm going through this process slowly; I bought an HRT streamer and didn't care for it, now I'm trying to figure out what to get next). You'll likely be just as happy as before if not more, and you'll have oodles of money for new music. It seems like you reached that conclusion on your own though.;)

Filterlab

09-03-2011, 08:43

....when you don't have to pay for... audiophile pretensions. :doh:

:D

Lol! Perfectly phrased there mate.

As Ergoline has quite rightly insinuated, most of the cost of fancy hi-fi is made up by the fact that it's fancy hi-fi. Regardless of all the advergumph, it's still just electronic components in a metal box, and components are cheap. :)

Spur07

09-03-2011, 11:15

Yep, it can.

My last CD player was a Musical Fidelity A3.5CD, and I use the word 'last' because I won't bother with a CD player again. The comparison between the 3.5 and my iMac can only be equated to night and day (with the iMac being the day bit). In fact, when I first tried audio from my iMac, I didn't even use an external DAC, I literally plugged the headphone socket into my amplifier - and it sounded better than the 3.5! When I added a DAC (an Apogee something-or-other) it positively destroyed the 3.5 and secured my future audio well in the computer camp.

Since then I've discovered lots about correct implementation, experimenting with loads of different software helped enormously. I use XLD to import (which checks for correct import against a massive database of imports from the same disc by users across the world) in AIFF format and I use Cog to play back. Fiddling with various codecs can yield changes, but I've found that AIFF 16/44.1 on import and either 16/44.1 or 32/88.2 (or 176.4 if you like the effect of 4x oversampling) on playback is as good an output as one is likely to get.

The main thing a computer doesn't have to do is read the information newly on-the-fly as it were; every time a CD player plays, it's taking the information live from a spinning disc each and every time, as the disc becomes dirty or damaged, the error correction has to work harder and compensate for more. With an audio file, it's the same every time its played, as long as the original import is spot on (hence the database correction being so valuable, as well as CD Paranoia), then so will the playback be every time, and even though the playback stream comes from a hard drive, it's actually played back from RAM - so no moving parts to intervene anywhere along the way.

Of course, there will be a tiny amount of interference caused by the displays, other software and the various other components, but if you can hear these I'd be amazed, the background is so inky black and silent on properly undertaken computer based audio that only the music shines through. If you wanted to get truly 'high-end nutter' serious about it, I guess you could mount your sound card out of the main computer (tricky with a laptop or iMac, but perfectly easy on a Mac Pro or PC tower) to isolate it from interference, and then apply all the normal tweakery to try and help it along, but whether it would make viable improvements in anyone's guess. :)

The good thing about computer audio is its flexibility - most people have a desktop/laptop already and you can tweak away trying different set-ups outputs, etc, until its time to move away toward an affordable system that follows the route already taken with the SB 'touch'.

Tim

09-03-2011, 19:32

Tim, are you comparing the Samsung/Caiman with the MF using its internal DACs? Have you tried routing S/PDIF co-ax/optical from the MF to the Caiman? That may give you a more even-keeled comparison.

I did try this as well Martin, I bought one of Marks coax cables especially for this purpose. There is an improvement over the A3's DAC, but it still falls far short of the results I am getting feeding the Caiman with FLAC files from a computer.

I'm still considering the practicalities of this, but I think for me and I know it won't suit everyone, but playing CD's is no longer my preferred option. I haven't put the A3 on eBay yet, but I feel it's inevitable.

spamnap

10-03-2011, 00:53

StanleyB

10-03-2011, 08:06

wee tee cee

10-03-2011, 19:31

I have just had the same experience with an all Naim system. Bought a Caiman just really out of curiosity really but I have to say it is much better than expected and has relegated my Naim CD5i II to an ornament. I play files direct from PC via sp/dif and the sound is much smoother and with better bass. I find I want to listen for hours lately. Now I need to buy net book or laptop to use solely for music storage and to use Foobar as player. So far so good.

I have done exactly the same thing,having moved from a dac majic to musical fidelity m1 with a squeeze box duet.I played a couple of tracks on both the naim and squeeze and havent played a cd since.Traded the naim against the m1 and some speaker cable.After having read the thread I hooked up my dell lap top via the usb and it does indeed sound better than the duet with co-ax or optical.I suppose it cuts out the whole wireless variable.

Ikemen

02-04-2011, 23:44

The good thing about computer audio is its flexibility - most people have a desktop/laptop already and you can tweak away trying different set-ups outputs, etc, until its time to move away toward an affordable system that follows the route already taken with the SB 'touch'.

Is that to say the SBtouch does a better job on audio quality than a typical desktop/laptop, as a transport that is? I am trying to decide between SBtouch, QLS-550, or a netbook/laptop, linked to a modded Caiman.

Tim

03-04-2011, 09:14

Is that to say the SBtouch does a better job on audio quality than a typical desktop/laptop, as a transport that is? I am trying to decide between SBtouch, QLS-550, or a netbook/laptop, linked to a modded Caiman.
I'm sure you will bet other opinions, but your last option would IMO give the best results, especially if you have a large library of music. However the Touch does have ease of use on it's side as to use a PC effectively, it needs to be set-up correctly. A lot may depend on what you already have too, whatever way you go and if sound quality is important, you are going to need a good DAC. The Caiman is hard to beat at it's price point (and many price points above it for that matter).

From what users have mentioned before the Touch can have buffering issues with large collections, but hopefully some Touch owners will offer some advice?

WAD62

03-04-2011, 10:45

Squeezeboxes use a client/server configuration, the Touch can be both client & server, but is happiest as a client with some form of computer acting as a server, and even better when it's feeding a nice DAC.

There are limitations (playlist size etc.) when using it as a server, and it also pushes it towards the edge of its capabilities. It's only a mini linux computer after all.

Ikemen

03-04-2011, 12:17

Interesting views. Actually my collection is small and will remain so I suspect. The touch is looking promising, if the audio quality differences between that and the other transports I mention is not particularly large.

I really like the EQ possibilities a laptop brings. I suspect that may help my DIY open baffles more than the differences in the quality of the transports I am considering.

P.S. I can edit my "About Me" but not my signature. Wanted to add that below;

Marantz KI63 Sig Mk2, sony Blu-ray, CATV
Class D amps - TA10.1, 41HZ amp6bs, two 41Hz amp9bs
DIY open baffles - 4-way active - BG neo3pdr tweeter, Monacor 4" and 8", dual Eminence Alpha15
Computer; First edition G5imac, OS limited to 10.5

electric beach

05-04-2011, 15:10

From what users have mentioned before the Touch can have buffering issues with large collections, but hopefully some Touch owners will offer some advice?

I'm also getting close to ordering the Touch next month. I don't consider I have a large collection, maybe 200 CDs.

What are we considering the unit can handle directly from an HD like WD Passport?

The appeal is to use the unit directly and avoid a PC.
I've been using a PS3 and I'm sold on the sonic improvements to be had from FLAC file replay, but the streaming and buffering issues I can't live with.

WAD62

05-04-2011, 15:37

I'm also getting close to ordering the Touch next month. I don't consider I have a large collection, maybe 200 CDs.

What are we considering the unit can handle directly from an HD like WD Passport?

The appeal is to use the unit directly and avoid a PC.
I've been using a PS3 and I'm sold on the sonic improvements to be had from FLAC file replay, but the streaming and buffering issues I can't live with.

I stream FLAC via wifi from my QNAP NAS to three SBs (2 receivers and 1 SB3), and I don't have any buffering or streaming issues, I can have all 3 playing simultaneously without any problems (also whilst I'm playing from the same library with my PC). Perhaps you need a new router, or you have very thick walls :)

I'm sure the touch will easily handle 200Cd's worth of FLAC as a server, I'm not sure where performance tails off, but the larger the collection on your HD, the larger the index DB will need to be, and that eats up the touch's storage.

And if in the future you want to expand on the SB side of things you can easily add a server and simply use it as a client, so it's fairly future proof ;)

electric beach

05-04-2011, 18:43

Thanks Will

The router is a standard BT jobby, connected via ethernet and one metre away - so you're probably right about that being the source of my pain! :donk:

Butuz

06-04-2011, 16:54

http://www.filesaveas.com/images/homehub20_04.jpg

If it's a bt home hub as above you have don't worry they're excellent routers full stop.

Butuz

WAD62

06-04-2011, 18:44

As Butuz states your router should be fine, perhaps it's the PS3...

Streaming FLAC shouldn't stress your router, particularly via an ethernet cable :)

Bonky

06-04-2011, 20:36

Since then I've discovered lots about correct implementation, experimenting with loads of different software helped enormously. I use XLD to import (which checks for correct import against a massive database of imports from the same disc by users across the world) in AIFF format and I use Cog to play back. Fiddling with various codecs can yield changes, but I've found that AIFF 16/44.1 on import and either 16/44.1 or 32/88.2 (or 176.4 if you like the effect of 4x oversampling) on playback is as good an output as one is likely to get.

:)

I too have an iMac (and Caiman). What do you use to output the Cog to your hi-fi? Apple airplay/airfoil? (Or have I missed something - again)

BW

Richard

Batty

06-04-2011, 22:08

I have an SB touch plugged into my Copland, fed wirelessly from a NAS server with 2x 2Tb drives music files are MP3 and FLAC, the router is an el cheapo Billion BiPac 5200G. all works seamlessly. PS Internet radio through the SB is so handy as the local stations here drift a fair bit on the tabletop radio.

jantheman

07-04-2011, 07:15

So here's the thing (and I have been playing with it all morning) I am preferring the sound I am getting from this set-up, than from my Musical Fidelity A3 CD player.

That can't be right, surely?
Sure can buddy..thats why I use a similar setup myself. My TT and CDP are pretty much redundant now. Also have the bonus of being able to use my iPod touch as a remote so being the lazy SOB that I am, I can sit in my chair and control the world from there.
I had a Samsung netbook before I got the Mac mini and they are well suited to media streaming. More than enough power there for shoving digital audio down a wire. The Samsung is upstairs now, still earning its keep.
Is this the future of HiFi....certainly seems that way (until something new comes along) but there is still plenty to be said for going retro.

electric beach

07-04-2011, 14:09

As Butuz states your router should be fine, perhaps it's the PS3...

Streaming FLAC shouldn't stress your router, particularly via an ethernet cable :)

Good points and a big help. The router is in fact the BT homehub. Never thought it may be the PS3 itself as performance has been the same since new. I get issues with streaming Lovefilm at peak times which I put down to the broadband service. Have filters in place and checked cables and connections.

Need a Touch to check it out really... :eyebrows:

WAD62

07-04-2011, 15:49

Good points and a big help. The router is in fact the BT homehub. Never thought it may be the PS3 itself as performance has been the same since new. I get issues with streaming Lovefilm at peak times which I put down to the broadband service. Have filters in place and checked cables and connections.

Need a Touch to check it out really... :eyebrows:

I wonder if that's Lovefilm's backend servers struggling with demand :eyebrows:

Anyway someone spotted this on another thread...

http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=457344

...at that price it would be rude not to ;)

Alex_UK

07-04-2011, 19:26

electric beach

08-04-2011, 07:55

I wonder if that's Lovefilm's backend servers struggling with demand :eyebrows:

Anyway someone spotted this on another thread...

http://www.misco.co.uk/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=457344

...at that price it would be rude not to ;)

DONE ;)

One wouldn't wish to appear rude.

electric beach

08-04-2011, 08:10

What model PS3 is it Sreve? My original one never missed a beat, but my new PS3 Slim has been an absolute bugger with my Orange Siemans router, and doesn't like to play nicely at all wirelessly, though it is ok most of the time via ethernet. Could be a compatibility issue between the two, rather than a "fault" with either.

It's the fat original model Alex. Apart from dropping the connection on a fairly regular basis and buffering delays, which could be the PS3, I do find widely varying performance on and off peak times, so I'm still convinced that it's fundamentaly the broadband service in some way.

Anyway.... Touch on the way :eek:
This is going to feed a Williams Audio DAC, then to the AOS Yaquin via Mark Grant G1000HD cables, so let the show commence! :flasher:

Ali Tait

08-04-2011, 13:08

That should sound good Steve, I'm still happy with mine.

electric beach

08-04-2011, 13:49

Ali, if I use the Mini-T instead of the Yaquin, I will be able to get ALL my electronics inside one speaker! :lolsign:

That's taking active speakers a bit too far. :mental:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/picture.php?albumid=65&pictureid=481

Stratmangler

09-04-2011, 11:44

I like that stuffed cat ornament you've put into the mouth of that speaker horn Steve.
Do you have a matching one for the other side ? :eyebrows:

Tim

09-04-2011, 11:53

I like that stuffed cat ornament you've put into the mouth of that speaker horn Steve.
Do you have a matching one for the other side ? :eyebrows:
Probably helps damp it down a tad ;)

Stratmangler

09-04-2011, 11:56

Probably helps damp it down a tad ;)

So it's a MAB (mobile acoustic baffle) then ? ;)

Tim

09-04-2011, 12:03

So it's a MAB (mobile acoustic baffle) then ? ;)
:lolsign:

Tim

12-06-2013, 12:03

Gigabyte Brix

Instead of littering the place with multiple computer audio threads, I'm going to try and keep a lot of my posts in one place.
Anyway, this may be worth considering for some, my only reservation would be the fan as I don't advocate any moving parts in a music server, but having said that, this could be an attractive option for someone wanting a very small, low powered media device. It could also be easily powered by a linear power supply, so if you kept the load light, the fan may not even kick in with something like a i3 CPU.

http://www.gigabyte.com/fileupload/product/104/4581/7947_m.jpg

http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=4581#ov

http://anandtech.com/show/7011/computex-2013-kabini-in-a-brix-haswell-too