View Full Version : What first?
magiccarpetride
03-03-2011, 21:02
Various vendors peddle their own agendas by proclaiming that various components play the most important role in the audio system. For example, Linn is naturally pushing the 'source first' agenda. Other vendors, say speaker manufacturers, are, as expected, pushing the 'speakers first' agenda, and so on.
But for us poor slobs (apologies to all the slobs out there), who work hard for our money and want to squeeze the max out of it, such propaganda means nothing. So I'm starting to wonder now if there could be a reasonable consensus among the people with no vendorized agendas as to what segment of the audio chain tends to influence sound quality the most? Is it the source, or is it the digital-to-analog conversion, or is it the pre-amplification, or is it the amplification, or is it the speakers, or is it the speaker placement, or is it the room treatment, or is it the interconnects, or is it the PSU?
If we are not fine tuning a system then I think the speakers will have the biggest influence on sound, quality would be a different issue, digital v's analogue for eg.
Every link in the chain is important and can influence the sound of the whole system. That is what 'system' means and it requires complete synergy. I certainly don't believe in source first any more, I believe in balanced capability.
magiccarpetride
03-03-2011, 23:05
Every link in the chain is important and can influence the sound of the whole system. That is what 'system' means and it requires complete synergy. I certainly don't believe in source first any more, I believe in balanced capability.
I tend to agree, however I'm still not sure if we can assume that each and every link in the chain can carry the same weight and the same impact. Or maybe it can?
For example, I can achieve some improvements in the sound quality if I isolate my electronic components from the surrounding vibrations, or if I make sure that the cables and interconnects are not formed into a "snake's nest", but will that improvement be of equal magnitude as the improvement I would get if I switched from the $300 Caiman DAC to a $12,000 DAC?
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 12:47
If I was to start this 'hobby' from scratch, I would firstly make sure I have designated listening room, which is much longer than wide. Then I would buy the best and biggest speakers I can afford, because I wouldn't have to be concerned what the other half is thinking.
Then I would decide what my main source is and built rest of the amplification around that source. If the main source is vinyl, like it should be :eyebrows:, I would listen as many cart/arm/TT combinations as possible and then decide what I like. Then I would get phono stage which compliments the TT. Then it is just a question of marrying the phono stage to the speakers with right amplification.
Easy and rewarding :doh:
Easy and rewarding :doh:
It isn't, though, is it? For instance, room synergy doesn't just involve the speakers because the source and amplification are platform sensitive - microphony, floor/wall vibrations, mains issues, RFI etc.
What you are building is a system of components, each of which interact with each other and with the room. Not to mention your personal tastes. No wonder every system ends up different :)
I agree with Barry and Martin but let me clarify something for you.The loudspeakers is the most important piece of equipment (some might arque it's the room) in a hi-fi system
in what way? They're the items that will state what kind of sound you are going to be listening to.If a speaker is overbright or thin soung etc,no amp or turntable or cd player is going to change that.On the other hand,we are talking "normal" setup here,not something like $70,000.00 speakers with a $500.00 integrated amp.The loudspeakers is the piece of gear that is going to "form" the sound you'll be hearing.The rest,they should be matched to them to provide a balanced setup.As for cables,anti-vibration stuff etc ,
concider them as a means for fine tuning.
HighFidelityGuy
04-03-2011, 13:19
I agree with Juha, I think the room has the biggest impact on the sound, then the speakers. IMHO the rest of the system should be as neutral as possibly. So I'd apply as much acoustic treatment to the room as you can get away with first. Then borrow a good quality amp that's known to be neutral sounding and then try various speakers in your room with this amp until you find some you like. Then just get the most neutral and detailed sounding source, amp and cables you can afford. It's not quite as simple as that but that's gist.
That's pretty much what I did, although I was a little late to the acoustic treatment game. I would agree that the source is very important in dictating the quality of the sound and how much detail you hear but I personaly don't think it should dictate the tonal balance. I think if the source is dictating the tone it's far too coloured to start with. If you're source is coloured then you're going to have problems getting the rest of the system to match. :)
I agree with Barry and Martin but let me clarify something for you.The loudspeakers is the most important piece of equipment (some might arque it's the room) in a hi-fi system
in what way? They're the items that will state what kind of sound you are going to be listening to.If a speaker is overbright or thin soung etc,no amp or turntable or cd player is going to change that.On the other hand,we are talking "normal" setup here,not something like $70,000.00 speakers with a $500.00 integrated amp.The loudspeakers is the piece of gear that is going to "form" the sound you'll be hearing.The rest,they should be matched to them to provide a balanced setup.As for cables,anti-vibration stuff etc ,
concider them as a means for fine tuning.
The problem is thats often not true. A loudspeaker can be overbright with one amp, well balanced with another, and boomy with a third.
Personally I think its a flawed question, as it assumes the existance of some measure of sound quality that can be used to make quantitive comparisons between different parts of a system.
For example. Other than simple objective metrics like frequency response, distortion etc, its impossible to rank two amplifiers against each other, to assess the sound of the amplifier, you have to provide a source and set of speakers/headphones. So the moment you start trying to make a comparison between two amplifiers, you fail, because you are rearly comparing the two systems. And its not possible in any formal way to go from a opinion on a system to an opinion on a single part of that system that has any meaning outside the context of the system. IYSWIM
The loudspeakers is the most important piece of equipment (some might arque it's the room) in a hi-fi system
It sounds so obvious, it must be right. Is it? I'm not so sure. The speaker might contribute obvious tonality and colourations, but the whole chain is responsible for much of the quality of the sound.
As for cables,anti-vibration stuff etc, concider them as a means for fine tuning.
Are you sure? I consider mounting, cables, mains supply quality etc. as ESSENTIAL components to be planned and budgeted for.
Every link in the chain is important and can influence the sound of the whole system. That is what 'system' means and it requires complete synergy. I certainly don't believe in source first any more, I believe in balanced capability.
Absolutely agree Martin 'System' is the key word....
It's from source to brain...and everything in-between ;)
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 13:54
I consider mounting, cables, mains supply quality etc. as ESSENTIAL components to be planned and budgeted for.
I agree with Martin on this. Isolation, especially when suspended flooring is concerned, will be extremely important: If you can jump on the front of the TT while it is playing, without jumping affecting the sound, that should be enough. In my case it means having a stone plinth under double isolated hifi rack. This arrangement works for me, but I am a firm believer of coupling / de-coupling. Especially important de-coupling will be with speakers. One should try bass heavy speakers with, and then without spikes, then you know what I mean.
Other undervalued thing is the cables. For badly balanced system, wire swapping wont make any difference. But when the synergy is achieved between different components in the hifi chain, cables will make a difference. This is especially with systems that have been built to be as revealing/neutral as possible.
alfie2902
04-03-2011, 14:59
The room and speaker interface and the overall acoustics of the listening room are by far the most important aspects of getting a good sound. A decent budget system, well set up in a room with excellent acoustics will wipe the floor with even a £100,000 system in a room with lousy acoustics.
I think its a flawed question, as it assumes the existence of some measure of sound quality that can be used to make quantitative comparisons between different parts of a system.
Totally agree, most sensible post on the thread. Who says it costs the same to build a DAC and loudspeakers of equal quality and how do you define equal quality anyway?
If you can jump on the front of the TT while it is playing, without jumping affecting the sound, that should be enough.
Hardly. Footfall issues are at a frequency far lower than anything the turntable has to deal with in use so immunity to footfall tells you nothing at all about how well the system is handling resonance in the audible range.
Who says it costs the same to build a DAC and loudspeakers of equal quality.
No-one did. It's not about balancing costs, it's about balancing capability.
No-one did. It's not about balancing costs, it's about balancing capability.
I think indirectly the original question did. The only way it could make any sense is if its asking what would the the most cost effective way of spending a given sum of money. Would £1000 spent on loudspeakers have more return than £1000 spent on source (for example). But either way it makes no sense as there is no way of objective way of compairing the result of a change in source to a change in speaker.
Ah, I see. Yes, it doesn't make sense to divvi up costs like that. I remember the old 40% source, 20% amplification, 40% speakers rule but it is nowhere near as straghtforward as that. The problem is, I can say 'balance the capabilities' but how do you evaluate that?
In essence, building a system frequently comprises taking two steps forward and one step back as the learning process builds.
Ah, I see. Yes, it doesn't make sense to divvi up costs like that. I remember the old 40% source, 20% amplification, 40% speakers rule but it is nowhere near as straghtforward as that. The problem is, I can say 'balance the capabilities' but how do you evaluate that?
In essence, building a system frequently comprises taking two steps forward and one step back as the learning process builds.
Exactly, that was why I suggested it was a fatally flawed question.
Techno Commander
04-03-2011, 16:38
Although the listening room is very important, it is not easy to pop out to "Lounges R us" and get a different shaped/sized one.
Therefore (for me) speakers are top of the food chain. It is easier to make really good speakers sing with a cheap(er) amp than vice versa.
It also depends on what the users wants. They might be into dance music so a huge but unsophisticated, PA-type sound is their ideal or they could want to hear as much musical detail as possible. If that was the case they'd be happier with a much better source and a pair of good bookshelf speakers.
The point being that you can't say categorically that one component matters more than another. Sometimes the only answer is 'it depends'.
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 17:25
?Hardly. Footfall issues are at a frequency far lower than anything the turntable has to deal with in use so immunity to footfall tells you nothing at all about how well the system is handling resonance in the audible range.
I have to disagree with you. I do not know enough about how exterior resonances affect to the sound quality in generally, BUT if your rack and TT are not de-coupled from the suspended floor, and every time you or your dogs walk across the room stylus looses the contact from the record groove, on my experience, this will affect the sound quality ;)
I have to disagree with you.
What you said was:
"If you can jump on the front of the TT while it is playing, without jumping affecting the sound, that should be enough"
What you are saying is that provided your turntable is immune to footfall disturbance then it is adequately isolated. This is just nonsense I'm afraid, sorry. The physical rocking or swaying caused by footfall has little relevance to sound quality, it's simply a practical inconvenience.
What matters is how a turntable and its support deal with vibration, within the audible frequency range, which either hits them directly as sound pressure waves or is transmuted into them through the floor. You could have a configuration that laughs off footfall no problem but happily transmits higher frequency noise into the turntable. Conversely, a turntable could be susceptible to footfall but be very good at blocking out resonance at higher, more important frequencies.
Of course, if you take steps to tackle footfall, like the mass loading you alluded to, the turntable might well sound different/better but that's because the change is also effecting what is happening at higher frequencies.
You might say 'well it doesn't matter, it's all the same issue that you're tackling anyway', but it's not that simple. Some of the things you could do to make a turntable less prone to footfall problems can might actually cause more problems higher up the frequency range. Something can be good at rejecting very low frequency vibration but rubbish higher up, where it does matter to sound quality.
So dealing with footfall is one problem, dealing with resonance within the working frequency range of a Hi-Fi system is another but they are not the same problem. A good solution to one does not mean you have answered the other.
magiccarpetride
04-03-2011, 19:10
It also depends on what the users wants. They might be into dance music so a huge but unsophisticated, PA-type sound is their ideal or they could want to hear as much musical detail as possible. If that was the case they'd be happier with a much better source and a pair of good bookshelf speakers.
The point being that you can't say categorically that one component matters more than another. Sometimes the only answer is 'it depends'.
Makes sense. However, I was more interested in soliciting responses from others that would be of a more personal kind. Something like "for me personally, I think speakers come first (i.e. I'd blow most of my budget on speakers), and here is why..." kind of a thing.
I'm not kidding myself by expecting that we could ever, even in the wildest of dreams, collectively come up with an 'objective' and realistic formula that would be applicable across the board.
magiccarpetride
04-03-2011, 19:13
If I was to start this 'hobby' from scratch, I would firstly make sure I have designated listening room, which is much longer than wide. Then I would buy the best and biggest speakers I can afford, because I wouldn't have to be concerned what the other half is thinking.
Then I would decide what my main source is and built rest of the amplification around that source. If the main source is vinyl, like it should be :eyebrows:, I would listen as many cart/arm/TT combinations as possible and then decide what I like. Then I would get phono stage which compliments the TT. Then it is just a question of marrying the phono stage to the speakers with right amplification.
Easy and rewarding :doh:
Rewarding yes, but 'easy'?
What you're proposing translates into a situation that would require almost endless amount of available time. For all the combinations and recombinations you'd get involved in the above proposed scenario, you'd need some substantial time required for you to sit back and evaluate. Sometimes, as we know, it takes months and months before we could conclude whether certain component stays or is on the way out.
I think it’s almost impossible to approach audio in this manner (best value component). If you make a change in one place you usually have to make other changes elsewhere to regain the balance; even a cable.
I’m always gobsmacked when I read that someone bought a new this or that and it slotted right in.
If Colin doesn’t mind being used as an example; a couple of shelves, hardly a major component change, have drastically altered the characteristics of his system.
However, given a fixed amount of money to spend and assuming it’s not already done and you are able to carry out the work I would have the systems response in the room measured, learn how the system sounds in the treated environment and then think about what aspects of the systems sound you would like to change.
Buying the “best” components rarely results in the best audio; matching components to give a sound you’re happy to live with can.
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 19:27
So dealing with footfall is one problem, dealing with resonance within the working frequency range of a Hi-Fi system is another but they are not the same problem. A good solution to one does not mean you have answered the other.
They might be different problem in theory, but in practice I think they go hand in hand. Well lets think this problem from the practical point of view, for me at least it works the best. Lets say we think about the turntable only on this time and how to isolate the signal it produces from the outside and inside resonances. Firstly we need to tackle the issue of TT rumble which is coming from the TT motor and resonates to the platter/tonearm/cartridge if this is not dealt with. There are several ways to prevent/try to prevent this 'rumble' from the motor getting into the music. In my case Garrard 401's motor is hanging on the air supported with 4 springs, which is a good starting point.
Then we have a massive aluminum TT platter, which for my understanding will help speed stability, but I am sure it does not harm when it comes to reducing internal and external vibrations. I have tried rubber rings around the platter, that are for sale for few pounds, but have not heard any difference what so ever. They should reduce the platter ringing, but I have never had any ringing in my system. I have also tried few TT mats and no real difference to the stock Garrard math. This might well be because the stock mat is good to start with.
Then there is the massive solid plywood plinth which in theory and in practice will couple the resonances coming from the TT motor. If you want to take this even further, one could isolate tonearm totally from the plinth, like Slatedeck used to do. Tonearm was standing its own stone plinth with spikes underneath. I have not done this for practical reasons.
Then I have the whole TT and plinth combo is sitting on a HiFI rack which every shelf is isolated with spikes underneath every supporting collar. Each shelf has additional shelf which is isolated with sorbothane between the shelves. The rack sits on a heavy stone plinth, which helps to couple the system from the speakers. Speakers themselves are isolated from the rack with spikes and are good distance away of them.
So how can I do a better job with this, I am always eager to learn.
Juha, get it off the floor and place it on an isolating shelf fixed to a solid wall ;)
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 19:46
Rewarding yes, but 'easy'?
What you're proposing translates into a situation that would require almost endless amount of available time. For all the combinations and recombinations you'd get involved in the above proposed scenario, you'd need some substantial time required for you to sit back and evaluate. Sometimes, as we know, it takes months and months before we could conclude whether certain component stays or is on the way out.
I just tried to be sarcastic. It is never easy. Sometimes I think it would have been easiest that I had bought Bose :lol:.
I do not personally really mind how long it takes to get there where I want to be with my kit. Another thing is that your taste for music and what you want from your system can change as well when you hear different combinations. I personally started trying to find the most clinical/revealing/pure sound that I could find. I wanted to hear all the minute details what was available from the source. Then I bought my first turntable, yes I am late convert, and everything changed 180 degrees. Now I am after the warmth and lush sound and try to get 'distortion' to the sound with valves just to make it more natural.
Does it really need to take that long time to decide that one doesn't like the new component in your system? If it sounds crap to start with, it will sound crap after two months :scratch:
I was more interested in soliciting responses from others that would be of a more personal kind.
Ah, fair enough.
I'm typically a source first guy. I want to hear as much of the information that I would consider musically important as possible. The subtleties of timing, pitch, the way the band play together, the separation between notes etc. For a reasonably high resolution system to be able to convey this information you need to have got it off the record intact, so the source comes first.
If you use a really good turntable with lower resolution amp and speakers you might not be hearing all of the turntable's potential but it will define the basics well. The reverse might be a poorer turntable that's clearly light up for what it is by a revealing amp and speakers. If the turntable smears piano notes together and suffers pitch variation no amplifier or speakers can fix that.
This idea was accidentally demonstrated to me many years ago. The first turntable I bought was a Dual 505, old farts among us might remember it? ;0) It was a lightweight turntable that offered borderline Hi-Fi sound at a low price. I used it with a little Yamaha amp and Wharfdale Diamonds and it sounded ok.
It was the first thing I wanted to upgrade though so it was traded in against a Rega Planer3. When I took the Dual into the shop they plugged it into a Naim Nait and Linn Kans to check that it was working ok before accepting it as a trade-in. Through this more revealing system it sounded terrible! Really horrid. By contrast, through the same system, the Rega sounded good.
Information lost at source cannot be recovered later. Distortion introduced at source cannot be removed. The source has to come first in that it has to be of a high enough quality that it is not shown up by the replay components.
Reid Malenfant
04-03-2011, 20:15
Information lost at source cannot be recovered later.
Indeed & agreed :)
Distortion introduced at source cannot be removed.
Also in total agreement, though in all honesty virtually any decent source shouldn't introduce a lot of distortion. CD virtually naff all, decent record deck & cartridge less than 0.5%
The source has to come first in that it has to be of a high enough quality that it is not shown up by the replay components.
& yet the things that add the most distortion are the loudspeakers :scratch:
In all honesty i think a lot is to do with the level you are listening at. Someone mentioned Wharfedale Diamonds which are pretty good to say the least at a moderate listening level (i'm thinking MK1). But ask them to play any louder than this & they fall off a cliff :eyebrows:
However if you happen to have a big pair of speakers that can manage realistic volume levels with reasonably low distortion you might find they sound better at a higher volume..
It's not just the system, but how it's used as well at the end of the day which just complicates things even more :doh:
I look at the kit some of you have, the differences you say you can hear between one component and another, one format and another, the experience you must have had to purchased the kind of kit you use and your f****d on basic good audio principles and unhappy with the sound you’re getting.
Until you know what your system sounds like giving as flat a response as possible given the components and the environment how the f**k do you make judgments on how to alter the sound to your particular taste? Where is your point of reference?
I think a basic rule with suspended sub chassis decks was to mount them on a solid wall whenever possible, you virtually eliminate floor born resonances due to loudspeaker coupling, the deck mounted at the correct height, is out of the way of careless knocks and if you do it right, easy to adjust.
The next most important aspect must surely be the environment. If you wont have it, take your system to another room and then come back here and say it sounds the same.
Seriously people……….
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 20:29
Juha, get it off the floor and place it on an isolating shelf fixed to a solid wall ;)
Hi John.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Made no difference compared to my set up's sound. Just looked hideous :)
Well, if you’ve tried it and you couldn’t both measure and hear a difference…….
All I can say is every place I’ve lived, without exception all the record decks I’ve owned in the past 30 odd years have sounded better properly mounted to a solid wall on an isolating shelf.
The guys I know who have them on Hi Fi floor standing furniture have them for one reason; they look better there.
Jac Hawk
04-03-2011, 20:51
Well i've read what everyone has written, I understand why a lot of people say that to start off you need to get the "right" room, but to be honest for most of us it isn't that easy, not all of us buy a house cos the stereo would go great in that particular room.
So you have your listening room, in my opinion your 1st consideration should be speakers, now i know that speakers can sound different with different amps etc. but 1st off you choose a speaker that YOU like the sound of in YOUR listening room, you then choose an amp to get the very best out of the speakers, remembering always that it needs to keep the sound that you like in the speaker, then it's down to choosing a method of getting the music into the amp, be it digital or Analog, finally you would tweek the system with cables power conditioning etc.
At the end of the day the whole thing is subjective, what's sounds right for one man doesn't for another, and also there is no right or wrong way to build a system, for instance you may love a particular TT so you would build a system to complement the TT, at the end of the day it's up to you.
magiccarpetride
04-03-2011, 20:53
The next most important aspect must surely be the environment. If you wont have it, take your system to another room and then come back here and say it sounds the same.
Seriously people……….
I did exactly that a few weeks ago. Took my system and replanted it into my recording studio. Did it sound the same? No, not really. Did the sound quality degrade? Yes, definitely. Was the difference staggering. No, it was marginal.
Despite the fact that I've replanted my system and placed it into a less than optimal environment, it was still quite easy to hear that it's a kick ass system. It's just that it wasn't delivering to its full potential.
So I disagree that environment plays a major role. It's more on the tweaking end of the spectrum. Much bigger gains are to be had with actually upgrading the components, than by dicking with the speakers around the room and by treating the room acoustically.
This is the same as with playing a real instrument. If I'm playing a shitty guitar, then no matter where I sit in the room or how well I treat the room acoustics, it will continue sounding shitty. It's unsalvageable.
If, on the other hand, I play a high quality top of the line guitar (Martin D28, for example), it will continue sounding gorgeous no matter where I sit in the room or how poorly I treat the room acoustics.
So, it's the source that really matters.
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 20:55
I look at the kit some of you have, the differences you say you can hear between one component and another, one format and another, the experience you must have had to purchased the kind of kit you use and your f****d on basic good audio principles and unhappy with the sound you’re getting.
Until you know what your system sounds like giving as flat a response as possible given the components and the environment how the f**k do you make judgments on how to alter the sound to your particular taste? Where is your point of reference?
That is an interesting question, what is the point of reference? I have no problem admitting that I have no point of reference. I simply stroll along and stick with what I like and what I don't like, I simply shift on fleabay. I think it is total bulls**t to say that one can remember how all the components in your HiFi history sounded like. This is the main reason why I went to valves and open baffle speakers. I can adjust the sound with tuberolling to suit my current taste and mood. I feel sorry for 'box swappers' who are seeking the ultimate combination in their system, but this is what the dealers want us to do.
One can continue seeking the ultimate musical high up to a point. That point will be when your money runs out or you are satisfied to the sound, which ever comes first. Like in everything in life there are many roads leading to the end point. End point will be the same for every one of us, that's 6 feet under some cases, some times turned to heat to heat local swimming pool :eyebrows:.
Okay Alex, if you’re sure….;)
But, you seem to be on the forums a lot either complaining about how your system sounds with this or that recording, or asking for advice about one component or the other.
There are quite a few here who seem very happy with their systems and from what I can gather for a considerably more modest outlay than your’s from what I can recall.
Either you’re a real picky f****r with a bats hearing or your system’s crap.
“I think is total bulls**t to say that one can remember how all the components in your HiFi history sounded like.”
Oh rly ;)
I don’t completely agree. I can certainly remember an “impression” of say how vinyl sounded in my system. I can also remember, or think I can, how my last CD player sounded in my system. How accurate the recall is I can’t say.
But, I don’t just rely on aural memory, I measure the output and when I get lost, which does happen, I undo the changes to match my “reference” output and start again.
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 21:13
Well, if you’ve tried it and you couldn’t both measure and hear a difference…….
This is what I don't understand :scratch:. Why do some people need to measure everything??? Would Michelin 3 star meal taste better if one could measure what it should taste like? Trust your ears more and enjoy the ride ;).
What can I tell you ;)
I’m not the one complaining about the sound of my system :rolleyes:
selfaddict
04-03-2011, 21:38
What can I tell you ;)
I’m not the one complaining about the sound of my system :rolleyes:
Am I missing something here John :scratch:? Where in this thread have I complained how my system sounds?
I was actually refering to Alex ;)
You asked why measure. I answered in general terms :)
alfie2902
04-03-2011, 22:17
I did exactly that a few weeks ago. Took my system and replanted it into my recording studio. Did it sound the same? No, not really. Did the sound quality degrade? Yes, definitely. Was the difference staggering. No, it was marginal.
Despite the fact that I've replanted my system and placed it into a less than optimal environment, it was still quite easy to hear that it's a kick ass system. It's just that it wasn't delivering to its full potential.
So I disagree that environment plays a major role. It's more on the tweaking end of the spectrum. Much bigger gains are to be had with actually upgrading the components, than by dicking with the speakers around the room and by treating the room acoustically.
This is the same as with playing a real instrument. If I'm playing a shitty guitar, then no matter where I sit in the room or how well I treat the room acoustics, it will continue sounding shitty. It's unsalvageable.
If, on the other hand, I play a high quality top of the line guitar (Martin D28, for example), it will continue sounding gorgeous no matter where I sit in the room or how poorly I treat the room acoustics.
So, it's the source that really matters.
Acoustics is a science that plays a role in every sound we hear! It's not something you can choose to believe in :doh: & if you have a recording studio you should have at least a basic understanding of it!
Perhaps you should google Fletcher and Munson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson-Dadson_curves & do a little reading! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_acoustics
As stated earlier we are often stuck with our rooms! But we can work with them, treat them etc http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/ some reading there. There's loads on the net to be found. HiFi is all about sound & every room has an influence on the sound. Speaker room interface has simply got to be the logical starting point as it has the biggest effect on what we hear!
Jac Hawk
04-03-2011, 22:37
Acoustics is a science that plays a role in every sound we hear! It's not something you can choose to believe in :doh: & if you have a recording studio you should have at least a basic understanding of it!
Perhaps you should google Fletcher and Munson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson-Dadson_curves & do a little reading!
True, if i'm sat on the sofa in my optimal listening position, my system sounds great, if i then stand up and move to the door i hear way way less bass, at the end of the day who really gives a fcuk as to what's "the most important" piece of the puzzle as long as you have a lovely picture in the end.
And Alex it's not always about spending boat loads of cash on a stereo system or having "the best" this or that, but being wise and weighing up what goes well together, spending only what you need to, so that you're happy with the sound, any fool can spend £100,000 on hifi and buy "the best" but people that do that, tend to do so to impress their mates rather than for the reason of it sounding twice as good as a system costing half the price.
magiccarpetride
04-03-2011, 23:49
Acoustics is a science that plays a role in every sound we hear! It's not something you can choose to believe in :doh: & if you have a recording studio you should have at least a basic understanding of it!
Perhaps you should google Fletcher and Munson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robinson-Dadson_curves & do a little reading! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_acoustics
As stated earlier we are often stuck with our rooms! But we can work with them, treat them etc http://www.acoustics.salford.ac.uk/acoustics_info/room_sizing/ some reading there. There's loads on the net to be found. HiFi is all about sound & every room has an influence on the sound. Speaker room interface has simply got to be the logical starting point as it has the biggest effect on what we hear!
Listening to music for me is similar to eating a meal. Either you enjoy it, or you feel something's not quite there, or you don't enjoy it, or you even hate it.
My point is, you know it RIGHT AWAY. There is no delay. You don't need to google it or read about it, you just know. You can taste it!
magiccarpetride
04-03-2011, 23:50
True, if i'm sat on the sofa in my optimal listening position, my system sounds great, if i then stand up and move to the door i hear way way less bass, at the end of the day who really gives a fcuk as to what's "the most important" piece of the puzzle as long as you have a lovely picture in the end.
And Alex it's not always about spending boat loads of cash on a stereo system or having "the best" this or that, but being wise and weighing up what goes well together, spending only what you need to, so that you're happy with the sound, any fool can spend £100,000 on hifi and buy "the best" but people that do that, tend to do so to impress their mates rather than for the reason of it sounding twice as good as a system costing half the price.
You calling me a fool? I find you impertinent!
Jac Hawk
05-03-2011, 00:17
You calling me a fool? I find you impertinent!
No I wasn't to be honest it was a generalisation, howerver if the cap fits..........
Acoustics is a science that plays a role in every sound we hear! It's not something you can choose to believe in!
Ha ha, I like that! And it's true of course.
If you can take a system from one room to another and it sounds very similar then either the the rooms must be in the same ballpark acoustically or the system has to be quite limited in its reach.
I'd have to agree about the room being the most important factor, a good room is a real blessing, but I think you guys are kind of going off on a tangent here. When thinking about what's the most important part of a Hi-Fi system you can really only talk about the components relative to each other. If you start bringing all kind of other considerations into it it's never ending.
Sure, you need to pick a pair of speakers that will work ok in your room, let's concede that. Does that make the speakers the most important part? No. It's just one of the considerations involved in choosing them. It no more makes them the most important part than having to pick speakers that fit in with the décor.
To illustrate, consider this. You've bought some really high-quality speakers that will work great in your room, they even match the curtains. Does this mean that you can now plug a mid-range amplifier and budget turntable into them and get a good, well-balanced sound? No. The source isn't less important because you've not chosen it first.
And to flip it around, someone mentioned Wharfdale Diamonds. Very cheap little speakers, I've had two pairs, cost under £100 at the time. Have you ever heard them plugged into a good amp and turntable? The results are fantastic! They really open out and sound nothing like a cheap speaker.
No, they won't do party volume. Well, actually they will, just won't live to tell about it! But yes, they are still compromised, but that's not the point. In terms of sound quality you can build very nicely balanced Hi-Fi system using a high-quality turntable and budget speakers. It's really not advisable to do it the other way around.
Guys,rotfl,it will take ages to "defend" myself.How about "synergy"? If a system is well balanced,well,that's it ! :)
greenhomeelectronics
05-03-2011, 10:44
Interesting discussion this one. I started with the speakers, a pair of transmission line jobbies of my own design. I figured that something that changes electrical signals in to mechanical movement would probably have the biggest influence on the sound. I thought I had them right until Mrs decided that the room had to be turned round as a matter of urgency and that carpet was no longer appropriate and laminate flooring was a "must have". The result was devastating, my speakers went from great to shite in one easy move. In particular the mid range became totally over powering to the point where I had to start again from scratch.
My recent experiments with valves seem to indicate that the way an amp matches to the speakers also has a massive impact. The impedance of a speaker changes with frequency (that's why it's called impedance rather than resistance), different drivers change by different amounts at different frequencies. I am convinced that this is one of the biggest influences in synergy between speakers and amplifiers.
The ideal amplifier will do nothing more than make an input signal bigger - the output wave form will be identical to the input waveform in everything but amplitude. Electronics is at the state where, in theory, all amps should be able to do this, clearly this is not the case.
I think this is why this hobby is so fascinating, different things work in different rooms, different amps sound better (or at least different) with the same pair of speakers. The room acts like a speaker cabinet so a set up that sounds fantastic in one room sounds pants in another.
Personally I like to experiment 10 per cent of the time, the other 90 per cent of the time I am too busy listening to music.
I didn't intend to go on that long :)
Dave.
I just want to comment on
“This is what I don't understand . Why do some people need to measure everything??? Would Michelin 3 star meal taste better if one could measure what it should taste like? Trust your ears more and enjoy the ride”
Basically, the answer is yes :)
This audio is like food or wine and you should trust your senses is a comment that gets used a lot with regard to the measurement v listening debate.
The meal and how it tastes is the product of a process. To make a gourmet meal the ingredients are measured and processed in a particular sequence at particular temperatures etc.
Sure, you don’t measure the pleasure of eating the meal and no one is suggesting you should measure the experience of listening to a piece of music. Using measurement in the production process however is rather important. Try chucking a few ingredients in a few pans without a recipe or measurement and see what sort of pleasure you get when eating the result.
To make a gourmet meal the ingredients are measured and processed in a particular sequence at particular temperatures etc.
That's a good analogy. It does however highlight the fallacy of using measurements instead of listening to evaluate Hi-Fi. The dish stands or falls on what it tastes like, nothing more. To suggest evaluating Hi-Fi using measurement is like saying that you should decide if a dish is good or not by looking at the ingredient list.
You're right, measurement during manufacture is obviously essential but of limited relevance to the end user.
Heres my take:
Back in 1998 I'd moved house 6 times in 8 years and during that time had maybe 30 different components (all budget stuff and/or seventies vintage kit) in and out of the system. After so many systems in so many different rooms I came to the conclusion that in an ideal world a good room had to be the best initial starting point.
I spent two years looking for a house I could afford that had a suitable room - long, unbroken by archways etc and with a solid concrete floor. Fortunately property prices were dropping at the time:)
The next step was to buy and install some big, full range loudspeakers. But this is the point at which things start to unravel - what if you are not like me and you do not want to play loud rock music and here proper bass? What if you just listen to acoustic jazz or string quartets? You don't really need the big speakers in the big room.
So it is horses for courses with regard to speakers and amps . I Have heard a demo of some floor standers at £1000 - I could not live with them for 10 minutes yet I am told they sell very well.
But whatever your musical taste you will need a quality source because as has been stated elswhere you cannot replace what is lost farther down the chain.
With amplification I have heard an amp sound terrible, flat and dull on my system yet sound excellent driving my neighbour's 'speakers
So my personal conclusion is that the hierachy is room first - then source - then the amp and speakers, these two to be considered together as a single component. Cost and apportioning budget does not really come into it, you just need to obtain the items that do the job together the way you like it.
I spent years looking for a house that had a suitable room - long and with a solid concrete floor.
I used to prize concrete floors very highly but, although they are much easier to work with, I actually now prefer the sound of wooden floors. It's hardly a show-stopper either way but I like the warmth.
I was careful not to suggest you should use measurement instead of listening ;)
What I am suggesting is if you measure the acoustic performance of a system then you’ll be in a better position to make improvements than by an endless round of box swapping with crossed fingers.
A great deal does of course depend on how well you know your system and your awareness of the type of sound you like.
I used to prize concrete floors very highly but, although they are much easier to work with, I actually now prefer the sound of wooden floors. It's hardly a show-stopper either way but I like the warmth.
At one point I rented a big old Victorian house - the living room had a floor like the deck of HMS Victory, 6'' wide oak beams - couldn't wait to get the kit set up...the TT bounced like a trampoline, it was beyond belief.
I finally got it sorted by buying an expensive rack and setting it up halfway up the stairs - a real PITA - After that I said no more wooden floors:)
I have some empathy with Colins fondness of wooden floors because the can add something to the tone of the system. The problem is wooden floors are often difficult to control. My ideal would be a concrete base, a 200mm spaced 25mm high batten grid work with acoustic tiles in the gaps and floorboards screwed to the battens. The speakers are couple directly to the concrete through the floorboards by long spikes.
I’ve heard this arrangement and it seems to combine the best of both worlds.
couldn't wait to get the kit set up...the TT bounced like a trampoline
Sure. It's the biggest issue with wooden floors. Having similar problems myself. I like the sound though.
if you measure the acoustic performance of a system then you’ll be in a better position to make improvements
I guess, if you know what you're doing.
I was careful not to suggest you should use measurement instead of listening ;)
What I am suggesting is if you measure the acoustic performance of a system then you’ll be in a better position to make improvements than by an endless round of box swapping with crossed fingers.
A great deal does of course depend on how well you know your system and your awareness of the type of sound you like.
Some box swapping is inevitable and it can be quite entertaining for the enthusiast. It's part of the whole thing for me. Doing it scientifically? - nah:eyebrows:
Sure, I understand that box swapping is part of the attraction of this hobby. We all like new toys.
I also understand that the look of the system is important to many people.
If I had sufficient funds no doubt I would box swap with a big grin on my face but I don’t so I’m pretty careful about what I end up buying which isn’t a lot these days.
I make/mod most of my kit these days which I find great fun if a little unpredictable at times.
I’m a bit stuck with amplification atm. I know approximately what I need from a new amp for my system but I don’t have the knowledge to built it with any degree of outcome certainty and the few amps I’ve heard in my system that significantly outperform my current and provide the type of sound I prefer are way outside my budget.
(I keep thinking about Colins Meridian set up :eyebrows:0
I'm fairly sure we're going round in circles here, which is to say that we're all proposing a variation of:
The room is important, systems synergy is important, it's as good as the weakest link in the chain, your musical preferences are important :)
I'm fairly sure we're going round in circles here, which is to say that we're all proposing a variation of:
The room is important, systems synergy is important, it's as good as the weakest link in the chain, your musical preferences are important :)
Agreed!
Can we have the next question for the panel, please?...
Nice one Martin ;) Way to go mate. How to kill off a thread :lol:
I keep thinking about Colins Meridian set up
I'm not saying it's wonderful, just good value and ideal for my needs. Although more power is always nice, I do shut them down occasionally.
“I'm not saying it's wonderful, just good value and ideal for my needs.”
I appreciate this, but it wouldn’t be going in a “wonderful” system :)
My system is pleasant enough to listen to but not High Fidelity or high price compared to many.
I’m not a compulsive up-grader. I tweak a lot and try kit out if I can get hold of it. The Exposure has served me well for many years now and overall I’ve been very happy with it. I tried out quite a few amps when I bought it and at that price range it suited what I had best.
However, things have changed a lot in the last three years, file front end, rebuilt speakers and what shortcomings the Exposure has have become more apparent, particularly with imaging and low power listening.
The amps I think would sort the system out are out of my price range (Eastern Electric M20, NADM2 possibly a NUForce combo) or I have yet to hear what they will do in my system (Bantam Gold mono’s with valve Pre) and a couple of others.
Just curious about the Meridian kit really.
I doubt the Meridian would be night and day better than the Exposure, Exposure kit is pretty nice. The thing that swings it for me is the PRAT of good solid state plus 100wpc, which my Isobariks like.
A bit off topic, but not going for the wall shelf you linked to elsewhere then Colin?
not going for the wall shelf you linked to elsewhere then Colin?
For myself? No. My turntable sits on Phase Eight, that's eight separate Mana components. Five Sound Stages, a Sound Table, a Flat Top and a Reference Top to top the pile off. Each level of Mana you add improves the sound further, so far this has not stopped happening. I used to know people with seventeen levels or more.
If I moved to a Mana Wall Shelf instead of a floor stand I would have to replace the five Sound Stages and the Sound Table with smaller Sound Frames in order to keep the turntable at Phase Eight as the larger Sound Stages are too big to sit on the shelf. Unfortunately the Sound Frames don't pop up for sale very often. I have found one and I'm buying it but I'd need a few more before I could switch to a Mana Wall Shelf without a dramatic drop in sound quality.
It would be an ideal solution though, in theory I'd love to do that, and if I can pick up the right bits in future I might.
Reid Malenfant
05-03-2011, 21:18
For myself? No. My turntable sits on Phase Eight, that's eight separate Mana components. Five Sound Stages, a Sound Table, a Flat Top and a Reference Top to top the pile off. Each level of Mana you add improves the sound further, so far this has not stopped happening. I used to know people with seventeen levels or more.
I'm sorry but this sounds crazy :eyebrows: What you need is a skyscraper with a nice shaft to put your Mana on & have enough levels to get a thousand feet of the stuff by the sounds of it :D
Sorry Colin, well at least it might be Colin from memory but it now appears to be "pig", it just doesn't make a lot of sense.. There must be a level when it no longer has a positive effect...
I'd also add that if you need 8 levels of the stuff that you look for something that does a better job & use less of it :scratch:
There must be a level when it no longer has a positive effect.
I guess so but I haven't found that yet. I thought the law of diminishing returns would kick in at the second Sound Stage. Didn't. I still want more levels. When they stop doing anything I'll stop buying them.
I'd also add that if you need 8 levels of the stuff that you look for something that does a better job & use less of it
It's a cost thing. Years ago I messed about with different stuff on and off of Mana. Cheap CD players, expensive CD players, lots of things. Basically what it boils down to is that a few hundred pounds worth of Mana would cost thousands to equal in electronic upgrades. I have sold more expensive equipment to fund more Mana!
It does work, my system sounds very good :0)
I’m a bit confused about this Mana business.
Firstly, I thought they had gone out of business (?)
Secondly, as far as I know, Dave Watson copyrighted his design so how is anyone making and selling his design now? :scratch:
Firstly, I thought they had gone out of business
Yes, a few years ago now. I bought most of my Mana years ago but any new items have to be found second hand. The stuff's indestructible so it's a safe used buy.
As far as I know, Dave Watson copyrighted his design
It's John Watson and yes, he did copyright it but the copyright will be long expired now. If you wanted to manufacture Mana you could. Nobody has though although I know of one or two people who've made up Mana clones for their own use. It's a fairly simple design so it would not be hard to do.
Hmm, I know someone with a double stack (phase 2 ?) both with glass shelves. He doesn’t use them anymore as he has everything wall mounted now.
I’ve often wondered if they would make any difference supporting amplifiers. I can see possible benefits of supporting source components. Just curious again.
I’ve often wondered if they would make any difference supporting amplifiers.
Yes. They make a difference to anything. To be fair, the improvement under turntables is bigger, as is the difference under speakers, but any part of the chain benefits. All I can say is try it and see.
You do need to be careful how you use it. Unlike most Hi-Fi supports, which don't do much of anything either way, Mana will sound actively bad if not implemented very well.
I might go and weld up some speaker stands and check it out for myself.
I’ve got a few sets of as far as I can see identical stainless steel hex drive spikes. The only irritating part is getting the uneven width angle iron sorted. Hmmm…
Not really heard Mana in action other than at a hi-fi show. And all that persuaded me to buy was a copy of "Born Slippy" by Underworld.
The only irritating part is getting the uneven width angle iron sorted.
I don't know what you mean? It's just regular angle iron.
The stuff my mate has isn’t.
The uprights are a different width side to front. The horizontal pieces are even.
The stuff my mate has isn’t.
Really? I've never seen Mana like that. Every single piece of Mana I have ever seen is inch X inch angle iron. No exceptions. I've seen some really old prototype Mana that was welded in a different way but it's still the same angle iron.
Yep, I’m pretty sure because I remember commenting on it and that the first Mana I saw were gas welded while the more recent stuff is mig welded if my memory serves.
I wouldn't recognise the type of welding but if you use inch by inch angle iron you're fine.
At least you're noticing these details and appreciating that it might matter. I once had an early Mana Reference Top that was constructed differently from the norm. The cross-members were flush to the uprights rather than behind them. I did sound different.
If you want to make some I can keep you right as far as the details are concerned, I think I've got every type of configuration here except the wall shelf. The glass is 10mm float/plate glass, not toughened and has two small damping strips on each sheet. The boards are 17mm chipboard, not MDF, although some are thinner. Some are 16mm and I've got one here that's 15mm.
Stainless steel spikes under the glass sounds better and you can buy them on eBay very cheaply.
I may well take you up on the details at some point Colin :)
I had a lot of success with the turntable shelves I built years ago using 10mm (well 3/8 in those days ;)) suspended glass shelves on stainless steel spikes. I had a pair mounted side by side.
One of the problems I have with my current loudspeaker set up is bass frequencies traveling through the floor. Maybe a Mana style support could reduce this.
Being tight and skint Mana prices have ruled them out as purchases :rolleyes:
One of the problems I have with my current loudspeaker set up is bass frequencies traveling through the floor.
It depends on exactly what's going on but yes, Mana stands will tighten up the bass quite a lot. I don't know if I could live with Isobariks without the Mana stands, their bass is a bit overblown. If you send me a PM I'll give you my phone number and we can have a chat about it if you like?
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