View Full Version : Seeking the Perfect SUT for my Dynavector
Some of you will know that I run a Bob's Devices CineMag SUT with my Dynavector DV-20X2L low output MC cartridge and it sounds very good indeed. It looks like this:
http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/y2010/05/36235/cinemag3bak.jpg
I run it in high gain mode which provides 30dB (30x) gain with a load of 52 ohms. This means that a lot of commercially available SUTs aren't suitable as they have too low a gain (including the now discontinued Dynavector SUT), or too high a load (the DV is specified for over 30 ohms).
I made enquiries with Bob, who has always been very helpful, about superior transformers, use of silver and whether the Altecs in his range would be better and he replied as follows:
I have been pondering using some AudioNote transformers, but the price has been scary. I would have to sell the units for about $2500, so I decided against it. I am working with CineMag to provide me with higher quality transformers. I should know something within a month. I will keep you informed. Meanwhile, I don’t believe you can better the CineMag without spending over $2000. The Altec 4722 is not as good. I keep talking folks out of it.
Intriguing and I will certainly keep in touch with him to see what may come of this. In the meantime, Hugo (Shuggie) is visiting me tomorrow where I will have the opportunity to hear the exalted Audio Note Kondo SUT with its adjustable settings. I hope to learn a little about the best possible settings for the DV and will then use these in my continued search. I doubt I could ever afford the Kondo so I'm hoping it won't totally destroy the CineMags.
This is what I expect to hear tomorrow:
http://www.audionote.com.sg/2ndhand/ans6small.jpg
The only new price I can find is over £3k :eek:
Lol - most interesting, Martin, so please keep us informed, as I know you will. The Kondo is a killer - I've heard it with some AudioNote cartridges, so expect to be blown away (presuming it synergises with your DV) ;)
I thought that when we tried my A23 SUT with your Dynavector, there were elements of the sound which improved - the presentation certainly seemed to perk up a bit, but it wasn't altogether ideal, as I suspect the loading impedance wasn't quite optimal.
Also, with transformers, once one has correctly attended to the electrical requirements of your chosen cartridge, there's finding the right synergy between the two in terms of sonic signature (as electrical specifications aside, all transformers have an intrinsic sound of their own) - and it is this final 'marriage' between both cartridge and SUT which gives you music, as opposed to simply a 'hi-fi sound'.
That is why I like using pairings designed to work with each other from the ground up by a specific manufacturer, such as Ortofon or Denon, with their various SPUs and SUTs to match their MC cartridges, as you're guaranteed a good match without having to faff about.
Anyway, good luck with it. From what I heard, you've got plenty more to come from your marvellous Dynavector with a more sympathetic SUT match...! :)
Marco.
alfie2902
03-03-2011, 00:32
I'm also watching this closely & will look forward to the write up!
The Kondo SUT is something very special & used in conjunction with an Io is probably this best sound I've heard!!
Hi Martin,
I have the same Bob's Cinemag unit but at 1:16 gain running my Zyx Airy 3x.
The combination is wonderful and I don't feel I lack anything.
Of course that is true until you hear something better LOL :)
Pete
The SoundTradition Live! MC-10 with Hashimoto HM-3 transformers also looks very interesting. Getting rave reviews in Vinyl Engine. Gives 40x and 20x gain with 3 ohm and 12 ohm loading, respectively.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0909/soundtradition_live_mc_10.htm
http://www.schopper.ch/uploads/images/Hashimoto/Live_MC10_b.JPG
Looks interesting....
I feel that I must apologise now for giving you the SUT disease! :lol:
Marco.
Good and proper! Seriously, when you compare a low output MC through a SUT and directly to an MC stage there is no contest - the latter always seems to make the music flat and lifeless.
There are many applications where transformers do a great job of impedance matching, look at valve output transformers for instance. Every time I've heard an OTL valve amp I realise why they aren't popular.
I know. And it kind of makes a mockery of what Richard Dunn used to say about SUTs only being favoured by 'bottle wallers' (valve users), because they simply added a pleasing coloration that wasn't accurate.
To that I say: BULLSHITE! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Martin..... you will have to go some to improve on the Cinemags they are the cleanest I've heard including the Altecs.
The Cinemags have one problem.... too cheap to get the "hi-fi" experts attention ..:mental:
.
I agree, Will, they are superb and a fantastic bargain. The purpose of my thoughts and this thread is just conjecture at the moment: whether there is anything out there that can better the CineMags at reasonable cost.
More once I've heard the Audio Note in my system.
Well, what an interesting and enjoyable evening we had last night. The Audio Note AN-S6 transformer has confusingly labelled switches for input load and output load. We had to guesstimate the gain produced with various switch settings, but we certainly started badly with 3.5 ohms cartridge load (the closest match to the DV's 5 ohm coil impedance) and 30k ohms output load. The gain was way too high and overloaded my Whest phono stage. By leaving the cartridge load alone and dropping back the output load to 10k ohms, we achieved the best possible sound from the AN. Clearly gain and impedance matching are vital to get good performance from a step-up; this flies in the face of the frequent need to buy blind as auditioning them is so difficult to arrange.
What we heard was a very well defined midrange, lovely on female vocals and with real edge to the beginning of notes and great dynamics. Just as you might expect from all that we know about silver versus copper. On the downside, I didn't feel that the overall sound gelled as well as the CineMags and there was an annoying hum/buzz that we couldn't eradicate no matter what earthing arrangements we made or positioning of the SUT. Further listening convinced me that, even if I could afford the AN, it would not be a step forward with my cartridge in my system.
When I put the CineMags back in circuit we once again had glorious silence: no hum, no buzzing. This vindicates Bob's statement about the CineMags on his website:
They are a bit tricky to setup properly, and are not as easy to build up as we are led to believe. I spent a lot of time perfecting the installation of them including proper wiring routing to gain the best performance, to eliminate all noise, and to eliminate ground loops. This is NOT the same schematic as shown on the CineMag website, and wires are precisely routed to maximize musicality of the unit.
The sound from the CineMags lost that slight edgy feel to the AN but was more of a whole and far more musical. Once again, I am very pleased with the way it plays music and, despite it not having been designed for the DV, it seems to do a very good job of working well with it in the high gain (30x) position with 52 ohm load.
As if to predict our findings and sum up my feelings, Bob wrote back to me late last night:
For you it is more about a proper match. 1:30 is perfect for you. If you go to 1:20 or 1:40, it will not match right. Lots of folks try to compare transformers and say that one outperforms another. They typically don’t match say 1:20 of one with 1:20 of another with the same cartridge.
I will build you whatever you want.
I love to build custom products.
The Sowter’s I sell have just been reviewed by 6moons. Here it is http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bobs/1.html
Problem with them is that it takes about 100-hours to break in. But when they are broken in, they are fantastic. But they won’t work for you. They are 1:10 / 1:20.
Please let me know how you like the audio note and the auditorium.
He is spot on. 20x gain is too low and gets me into raising the phono stage gain into an area where noise is evident during the quietest passages. 30x is perfect. The 40x offered by the AN and Hashimotos, for instance, overloads my phono stage. I think for now that I am receiving the best advice from Bob and I await the outcome of his talks with CineMag about a superior product with eager anticipation.
you will have to go some to improve on the Cinemags they are the cleanest I've heard including the Altecs.
You're so right, Will. That's the conclusion I've reached so far.
My thanks to Hugo and his friend Tony for bringing the Audio Note around :)
Very interesting, Martin, and a bit of a result in terms of your bank balance! ;)
Yes, it just shows again how important correct matching/synergy is with an MC cartridge/SUT and phonostage. Obviously the AudioNote SUT didn't match your DV very well, which is a shame in a way, but not entirely surprising.
When I heard it with the Io, it was a glorious combination, but then I guess it would be considering that both cartridge and SUT are from the same manufacturer, which bears out what I've been saying: synergy is best achieved when both have been designed from the ground up together.....
I agree that Bob is your best route to success with this project, and seems a very helpful and knowledgeable chap (why not invite him onto AoS?), so between you both, you should be able to come up with a bespoke SUT which really makes your DV sing! :cool:
Marco.
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