Avoid class D amps?

[magiccarpetride]

I had a chance to audition a couple of class D amps recently. One was Yorkville AP1020, the other one was Behringer A500. I believe both amps belong to the 'class D' category.

My impressions? These amps sound like a bad joke! Nothing even closely resembling music comes out of them. All I get when hooking up these amps to my audio system is some kind of a grainy blaring sound, similar to a grainy Xerox copy of a beautiful photo. Cymbals sound like someone is shattering the windows on the house, while the bass sounds like a rumbly mumble.

Yes, they offer a lot of wattage, which may be good for public announcements or for drunken wedding parties, but they just don't seem capable of playing music.

[Reid Malenfant]

The Behringer is a class AB amplifier ;)

[magiccarpetride]

The Behringer is a class AB amplifier ;)

Thanks for correcting me (don't know what possessed me to think it's class D?)

In any case, that amp didn't sound at all acceptable in my system.

[Reid Malenfant]

Thanks for correcting me (don't know what possessed me to think it's class D?)
Maybe because it didn't sound very nice? :D Actually i shouldn't say things like that as i have never knowingly listened to any class D amp apart from the one in my Paradigm sub, that's not exactly going to give me much idea now is it :eyebrows:

[jandl100]

Another anti-class D thread? :zzz:

Look in other sections here and you will find a LOT of folks who wholeheartedly disagree with you, including me.

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8734&highlight=ta2020

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6050
... and many more!

Oh, and the Behringer A500 class AB amp can sound mighty fine in many systems, including mine.

Carry on .... :eyebrows:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Don't your speakers need loads of power ...
Maybe that was the problem

[John]

Sometimes we get sweeping statement I heard quite a few class D systems and most of them have been quite good, often giving a sense of valve like performance
Remember a lot of equipment may partner well with one piece of equipment and not another what we want is the collective whole

[AlanS]

the bass sounds like some mumbling, slobbering, confused retard who's lost his way.



Alex

I know you like to provoke with your posts, putting it politely they can be more colourful than accurate.

I seriously question if it acceptable to make such derogatory references to "retards" as you have done and as quoted above. You may be happy to be treated with the same disrespect as that phrase exhibits towards others, but you seem to take offense so easily when people merely challenge your posts and experiences, let alone suggest anything so rude.

In the UK we have a political correctness that makes the calling of people names like retards usually the actions of an ignorant, socially challenged person.

So I have reported you post for being problematic, rude.

[Marco]

Sorry Alex. I have to agree with Alan, so your post has been edited accordingly.

Please be careful with this sort of thing in future. Cheers! :)

Marco.

[MartinT]

Ok, let's not use terms like 'retard' any more, shall we? There is plenty of lexicon to play with in the English language to describe sound without resorting to rudeness to a minority group who cannot defend themselves. I know the term is more widely used in North America but that isn't the case in Europe.

[Rare Bird]

he's not worth the forums board space imho

[AlanS]

Sorry Alex. I have to agree with Alan, so your post has been edited accordingly.

Please be careful with this sort of thing in future. Cheers! :)

Marco.


Ok, let's not use terms like 'retard' any more, shall we? There is plenty of lexicon to play with in the English language to describe sound without resorting to rudeness to a minority group who cannot defend themselves. I know the term is more widely used in North America but that isn't the case in Europe.


Thanks for your support in this, some members may have friends or family who are disadvantaged.

[AlanS]

he's not worth the forums board space imho

Andre

I hope AoS have a broad enough church to welcome everyone, however some could abuse the tolerance offered and mistake it for acceptance of everything they wish to do/say.

Alex's posts do attract some useful perspectives, mainly from others responses rather than his.

I don't post a great deal as I tend to be learning from reading the experiences and wisdoms of others.

[Marco]

Thanks for your support in this, some members may have friends or family who are disadvantaged.

No worries, Alan. It was a fair point, so I'm sure Alex will understand :)

Marco.

[John]

I work with people who have learning difficulties so thanks for picking up on this Alan

[leo]

Theres poor valve amps, class AB's as well as D too :) You can't judge an amp topology just because the ones tried didn't work well in your own system.

[magiccarpetride]

No worries, Alan. It was a fair point, so I'm sure Alex will understand :)

Marco.

No, I was using the term retard to describe reproduction of a bass guitar, not to describe a person. Wasn't aware that it is offensive to use the Latin word, denoting slowness, when trying to portray the reproduction of a bass guitar.

I have friends who are slightly retarded, and I do enjoy their company, so I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We're all different, you know.

If I say that Windows 7 was my idea, would you consider me as being retarded?

[Alex_UK]

I think you have completely missed the point Alex! It is not what you described with the term, but the fact that you used the term in the first place. Wallowy, lumpy, or just slow would have been fine, there's no need to resort to controversy with every post you know!

[John]

Alex this is still really offence can you stop using the word retarded when you talk about your friends, not sure due to the words history and what it can mean to people even if I like you using it to talk about music terms
You on dangerous grounds here This is not one of those times you can push it out and see where it goes

[Marco]

Alex,

Regardless of what you meant, using the term "retard", in any context, is not acceptable here. Please accept that - cheers!

Marco.

[Welder]

Can we re-title this thread to

“avoid hysterical adolescent Canadians on crack ?”

:sofa: :lolsign:

[magiccarpetride]

Alex,

Regardless of what you meant, using the term "retard", in any context, is not acceptable here. Please accept that - cheers!

Marco.

Accepted (I have no problem with that arrangement, as I myself am not that fond of that word to begin with).

Is there an official list of banned words on here that I could check before posting? I honestly wasn't aware that that 'word' was not acceptable.

What other dangerous words should I be aware of? Also, is that a definitive list, or am I to be forewarned that the list will keep growing without further notice, and that the onus is on me, as a god fearing citizen, to appraise myself of the dangerous words before posting?

Finally, who is the rightful owner of that list? And is there an appeal process, whereby honest tax paying citizens could object and try to exonerate certain words?

Let's work on making sure we don't turn this into yet another extremist, totalitarian regime.

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
Class D amps can be made to sound very good, [ i have played around with a few over the years] As with all modes of amplification its about how you implement the technology to gain the best performance from it.
Anthony,TD...

[Beechwoods]

Alex, personally, as a grown up with some years experience of getting on with other people online and in real life, I have a fairly good idea of what kind of verbiage is considered acceptable and what kind of words tend to cause offence. Most other people here do too, because it's only rarely that offence is caused. Let's not get into some pointless argument here, OK?

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Thank crap for Anthony breaking the tension is this here thread

I think 1 of the amps in my speakers is class d (not certain though)... And they sound fine ...
Mini t, HLLY 90, bantam and my four channel class d amp all sound jolly good too

[Welder]

While this isn’t strictly class D (although it gets described a s such) it’s one of the best amps I’ve ever heard.

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/nad_m2_direct_digital_integrated_amplifier/index.html

[SteveW]

Is there an official list of banned words on here that I could check before posting? .

Don't be a spaz

[magiccarpetride]

Don't be a spaz

So am guessing spaz is an OK word?

[SteveW]

So am guessing spaz is an OK word?

No.. It's just me and my warped sense of humour.
Sorry to all.

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm glad someone else has a sence of humor about this stuff ... I take the point it's offensive, but I do worry we are taking this sorta thing a bit far sometimes ...

It's not the word, it's the intent IMHO

But... where there is offence caused ... An apology is due ... Just because i don't find it offencive ... Doesn't mean others won't ... And that's where an attitude of caution is often advised when posting on an open forum ...
Not that I can talk with my f's and c's though eh :)

[magiccarpetride]

I'm glad someone else has a sence of humor about this stuff ... I take the point it's offensive, but I do worry we are taking this sorta thing a bit far sometimes ...

It's not the word, it's the intent IMHO

But... where there is offence caused ... An apology is due ... Just because i don't find it offencive ... Doesn't mean others won't ... And that's where an attitude of caution is often advised when posting on an open forum ...
Not that I can talk with my f's and c's though eh :)

Sounds like baloney to me (oops, another offensive word!)

[The Vinyl Adventure]

Is that phrase "put the shovel down" just en English one Alex?

[colinB]

:lolsign:[QUOTE=Hamish;192961]Is that phrase "put the shovel down" just en English one Alex?
:lolsign:

[magiccarpetride]

Is that phrase "put the shovel down" just en English one Alex?

It could be that, here where I live, we are world famous for consuming certain plant that tends to act like a retardant. Some people smoke it, and then feel as if life is slowing down.

Not a bad feeling actually, promotes longevity, and we tend to take it as a compliment when some outsiders hurl insults at us calling us "you slow people" (I'm not allowed to use 'that' word anymore, but you know what I'm trying to say).

[AlanS]

No, I was using the term retard to describe reproduction of a bass guitar, not to describe a person. Wasn't aware that it is offensive to use the Latin word, denoting slowness, when trying to portray the reproduction of a bass guitar.


Perhaps you did not remember what you wrote or check the quote in my post. As you replied to Marco I guess you did not check what you said and worked from memory. So here it is

"the bass sounds like some mumbling, slobbering, confused r****d who's lost his way."

Alex you used a simile where one describes something by painting a picture, this is denoted by using the keyword LIKE.

The bass was painted as being LIKE a person: a mumbling, slobbering, confused person who's lost his way. That sounds pretty insulting image without the word you are getting hysterical about. As Marco said you could have just described the bass as he editted to read, no need for the over stated verbals you choose to use including insulting someone less fortunate than your/our selves.



I have friends who are slightly retarded, and I do enjoy their company, so I don't think there is anything wrong with that. We're all different, you know.

If I say that Windows 7 was my idea, would you consider me as being retarded?

At this point you sound plausible though cheekily working the offensive word.


Accepted (I have no problem with that arrangement, as I myself am not that fond of that word to begin with).


But you do like using it don't you, even using it for friends and mockingly about yourself.



Is there an official list of banned words on here that I could check before posting? I honestly wasn't aware that that 'word' was not acceptable.

What other dangerous words should I be aware of? Also, is that a definitive list, or am I to be forewarned that the list will keep growing without further notice, and that the onus is on me, as a god fearing citizen, to appraise myself of the dangerous words before posting?

Finally, who is the rightful owner of that list? And is there an appeal process, whereby honest tax paying citizens could object and try to exonerate certain words?

Let's work on making sure we don't turn this into yet another extremist, totalitarian regime.

You have said I believe that you are an adult and have professional employment you should be more than capable of working it out, people on shopping trips need lists, almost everyone else here does work it out for themselves.


It could be that, here where I live, we are world famous for consuming certain plant that tends to act like a retardant. Some people smoke it, and then feel as if life is slowing down.

Not a bad feeling actually, promotes longevity, and we tend to take it as a compliment when some outsiders hurl insults at us calling us "you slow people" (I'm not allowed to use 'that' word anymore, but you know what I'm trying to say).

And at last you acknowledge that you know the word is an insulting one, "hurl insults". You might wish someone to think these people are using this word in a Latin sense, but I bet they are using it in the everyday straight insult mode that everyone does. That was a feeble effort Alex.

I hope you have enjoyed your little drama yesterday. So how come you if you don't like the word yourself, recognise it is an insult, didn't you take Hamishes hint to appologise rather than hamming up your poor innocence act?

Reminder it isn't just the word it is the intention behind it's use and refering to people who are disadvantaged in a mocking way is not smart in the UK or anywhere civilised really

If you are still uncertain what should be posted I can offer you a post vetting service for $25 per post, discount for volumes, payable to my PayPal account or you could just stick to simple English instead of going for Word Artist of the decade.

BTW The smoking habit - invalidates all your subjective experiences unless you use the same stuff from the same crop all of the time. I mean how do you know it is you experiencing something where you perceptions are altered i.e time slowing down

[roob]

What a muppet statement on Class D amps from the OP
I have a Tact SDA2175 power amp and for the past couple of weeks I have been auditioning a Hypex based amp and they are both fine sounding amps with none of the symptoms you describe.
The rest of your system must be broke.
A well implemented Class D design can be a very fine sounding bit of kit.
Edit: Having just googled the Yorkville its a $400 amp what do you expect!

[magiccarpetride]

Perhaps you did not remember what you wrote or check the quote in my post. As you replied to Marco I guess you did not check what you said and worked from memory. So here it is

"the bass sounds like some mumbling, slobbering, confused r****d who's lost his way."

Alex you used a simile where one describes something by painting a picture, this is denoted by using the keyword LIKE.

The bass was painted as being LIKE a person: a mumbling, slobbering, confused person who's lost his way. That sounds pretty insulting image without the word you are getting hysterical about. As Marco said you could have just described the bass as he editted to read, no need for the over stated verbals you choose to use including insulting someone less fortunate than your/our selves.



At this point you sound plausible though cheekily working the offensive word.



But you do like using it don't you, even using it for friends and mockingly about yourself.



You have said I believe that you are an adult and have professional employment you should be more than capable of working it out, people on shopping trips need lists, almost everyone else here does work it out for themselves.



And at last you acknowledge that you know the word is an insulting one, "hurl insults". You might wish someone to think these people are using this word in a Latin sense, but I bet they are using it in the everyday straight insult mode that everyone does. That was a feeble effort Alex.

I hope you have enjoyed your little drama yesterday. So how come you if you don't like the word yourself, recognise it is an insult, didn't you take Hamishes hint to appologise rather than hamming up your poor innocence act?

Reminder it isn't just the word it is the intention behind it's use and refering to people who are disadvantaged in a mocking way is not smart in the UK or anywhere civilised really

If you are still uncertain what should be posted I can offer you a post vetting service for $25 per post, discount for volumes, payable to my PayPal account or you could just stick to simple English instead of going for Word Artist of the decade.

BTW The smoking habit - invalidates all your subjective experiences unless you use the same stuff from the same crop all of the time. I mean how do you know it is you experiencing something where you perceptions are altered i.e time slowing down

You seem to be spending an inordinate amount of time obsessing over a few little things I wrote. I find that odd. What is it in my writing that compels you to obsess so much?

[Marco]

Ok, enough's enough now guys... I must insist that the 'Alex & Alan' show ends here, otherwise we're heading for a locked thread and one or both of you taking a holiday.

No more.

If I see one more 'tit for tat' post here from either of you, it will be deleted immediately, the thread locked, and the offender banned for a week. I do hope that I've myself clear!

Marco.

[technobear]

I haven't heard a Yorkville but I have heard an A500. They benefit greatly from some running in. Did you perchance hear a brand spanking new one?

The A500 also sounds much better when bi-amped. It has more rhythym when used in pairs.

I have heard many of the Bel Canto digital amps and have liked them all - so much so that I am buying one on Sunday. I am not expecting it to sound very much different to my Croft.

I'm buying an eVo200.2 power amp because my new Audiolab 8200CDQ has balanced outputs with which it is said to have a 20dB greater signal-to-noise ratio than when using unbalanced RCAs. My Croft is unbalanced so I feel the 'balanced power amp' is an itch that has to be scratched.

I may end up keeping them both though so don't get your hopes up eh?

I've also heard the Lyngdorf mentioned above and if I could have found a black one, I would have happily bought that one too.

[roob]

The Nuforce monos are a fine example of Class D at its best.
My silver Tact will be for sale soon I can supply a free can of black paint :)

[Reid Malenfant]

I can supply a free can of black paint :)
:scratch: Black paint?

Why :eyebrows:

[roob]

Black paint?
Technobear said

I've also heard the Lyngdorf mentioned above and if I could have found a black one, I would have happily bought that one too.
;)

[Reid Malenfant]

Ah, i see - well sort of ;)

[technobear]

LOL - except that I'm buying the Bel Canto now anyway...

[roob]

LOL - except that I'm buying the Bel Canto now anyway...
Enjoy.
Please let us all know how it sounds.

[Neil McCauley]

I sold a few dozen pieces of Lyngdorf on 28-day SOR to a wide range of people with differing systems and of course unique (to them) room acoustic. Not one piece was returned.

Resigned the agency when the UK importer went so far up his own rear end that he could in my opinion no longer see daylight nor reality. Prior to this (about 3 years back) auditioned TacT preamp and felt that they were a literal acoustic danger – in some hands – to some systems. As for me personally, I’m not prejudiced towards or against digital amps.

[hifinutt]

had class d bel canto amps , several versions for years. really love them
tony coherant modded my last pair of refs and the difference was fabulous. they really sounded good with my b&w 804s and focal 1028be

few weeks ago i heard a system with some 803s in a very big room with refs [class d bel canto] and the windows shook and the sound produced was extremely good and non fatiguing.
they are very practical, run cool, cost peanuts to run and should i fall on hard times i will definately be looking out for a cheap s/h pair

[SteveW]

I sold a few dozen pieces of Lyngdorf on 28-day SOR to a wide range of people with differing systems and of course unique (to them) room acoustic. Not one piece was returned.

Resigned the agency when the UK importer went so far up his own rear end that he could in my opinion no longer see daylight nor reality. Prior to this (about 3 years back) auditioned TacT preamp and felt that they were a literal acoustic danger – in some hands – to some systems. As for me personally, I’m not prejudiced towards or against digital amps.

Hi Howard,
Lovely to see you back here.
Funnily enough, just changed my main system to a new pair of Harbeth P3ESR's (thanks once again to hifi dave), combined with a Lyngdorf 2200 with room perfect.
I was instantly blown away by the combination. However the best commendation came from my wife.
Having said "... and don't go asking me if I can hear the difference, you know I can never tell when you make these changes."
Here comment on hearing it was
"good grief, that sounds amazing"

[Ammonite Audio]

Steve, I'm very glad that you're happy with your Lyngdorf, for which I feel responsible! I still cannot conceive changing mine for anything else, other than a Lyngdorf Millennium. This just goes to prove that general assumptions about amplifier types and topology are meaningless - it's the listening that counts (preferably with a woman at hand to provide a reality check).

Howard - did you not consider taking on Lyngdorf again after the UK distribution shifted to Gecko?

[Mr. C]

I have heard many of the Bel Canto digital amps and have liked them all - so much so that I am buying one on Sunday. I am not expecting it to sound very much different to my Croft.

I'm buying an eVo200.2 power amp because my new Audiolab 8200CDQ has balanced outputs with which it is said to have a 20dB greater signal-to-noise ratio than when using unbalanced RCAs. My Croft is unbalanced so I feel the 'balanced power amp' is an itch that has to be scratched.
.

:stalks:

[technobear]

:stalks:

Is that a sign of approval Tone?

Will we be seeing you at the show on Sunday?

[Neil McCauley]

Steve, I'm very glad that you're happy with your Lyngdorf, for which I feel responsible! I still cannot conceive changing mine for anything else, other than a Lyngdorf Millennium. This just goes to prove that general assumptions about amplifier types and topology are meaningless - it's the listening that counts (preferably with a woman at hand to provide a reality check).

Howard - did you not consider taking on Lyngdorf again after the UK distribution shifted to Gecko?

It was GECKO that forced me to conclude that representing the brand in the UK was hopeless! Nothing wrong with the products, sound, reliability or value. But the importer was a right pain. I would have preferred to deal direct with the maker. But GECKO are/were locked into Steinway systems and so that was pretty much that. Anyway, UK buyers can buy direct from HiFi Klubben and save a bundle.

[Filterlab]

Of all the solid state amps I've heard over the years, I'm yet to be more impressed than I was with the NuForce Reference range of Class-D amplifiers. The Reference 9 V3 is truly astonishing, a completely open window in terms of "representation". I've speech marked the word 'representation' because the sound coming through the amplifier simply wasn't a representation, it was just the sound. There was no colouration to speak of, no hiding of any musical element and no 'affect'. Lovely it was.

For information, the source was an AIFF sound file being played from a Dell laptop, the DAC was NuForce's DAC and the speakers were from Robson Acoustics. It was that sole demonstration that showed me computers CAN do music, proper music - if set up correctly. I went home and started investigating and consequently I've never played back from anything else since. It was also the first time I heard ribbon tweeters and the marvellous freedom that comes with them, hence my choice of speakers. :)

[DSJR]

I've got to look it up, but apparently ARC have jumped on the bandwagon with a £5K Class-D confection which measures abominably - and I mean 10% distortion when well driven. All second hand but I believe the evidence is in HFW.

[Welder]

Pretty much what Rob writes.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9128

[hifinutt]

I've got to look it up, but apparently ARC have jumped on the bandwagon with a £5K Class-D confection which measures abominably - and I mean 10% distortion when well driven. All second hand but I believe the evidence is in HFW.


yes heard this at the national audio show with martin logan ethos and it was truly sublime , if i could afford the arc pre amp ref 5 currently for sale [6.6k] i would have it as it was running into the class d power amp on that day i believe

[technobear]

Well, I've had the Bel Canto eVo 200.2 running for a couple of hours now :)

First impressions?

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/shock.gif

and

:eek:

and

http://www.technobear.btinternet.co.uk/emoticons/woohoo.gif

The term 'iron fist in a velvet glove' comes to mind.

I've got goosebumps in places I never knew I had hair :o

[SteveW]

Steve, I'm very glad that you're happy with your Lyngdorf, for which I feel responsible! I still cannot conceive changing mine for anything else, other than a Lyngdorf Millennium. This just goes to prove that general assumptions about amplifier types and topology are meaningless - it's the listening that counts (preferably with a woman at hand to provide a reality check).

Howard - did you not consider taking on Lyngdorf again after the UK distribution shifted to Gecko?

Ha..yeah, it really was your fault Hugo! At around the time I picked up the Kenwood from you I was already thinking of 'downsizing' the main system and setting up from scratch in the dungeon/basement. Part of this was a bargaining chip with my wife to spend some funds on the Harbeth 3PESR's.
So, I was looking at a number of integrated amps. Having heard yours and gone for the Lyngdorf(and lucky enough to find one almost immediately was a bit of luck).
What I didn't expect was just how good the Lyngdorf/Harbeth combo was going to be.
Had my mate over the other day who I don't think could quite believe his ears.. Especially as he had just blown a load of cash on the dynamic upgrade for his linn active amps.
The other surprise the Lyngdorf has given me is just how much it improves the sound from my linn kremlin tuner into an MF Xcan 3 and sennheiser 650's
It's a bit of a curfuffle, as it's fed from the audio out which is muted by default with everything else, but works by just turning the vol to zero.
Anyway.. Always a journey.