New Project - so what do you think of valve amps, then?

[greenhomeelectronics]

Hi folks, you may have seen in another thread that I am going to be selling valve amps in the not too distant future. I will be starting with one model, it will use dual EL34's on each channel, it will be switchable between ultra linear and triode, I figured that if I could not decide which way to go maybe others would like the choice. My aim is to market it at under the £500 mark, it will be a power amp but it will have volume control and 2 line inputs so you could just connect any line level device to it and use it without a pre amp, although you can of course use one if you wish. I figured that leaving out tone controls gave the cleanest signal path.
The prototype has come out quite hefty at about 22KG, it measures about 400mm wide by 300mm deep. It uses very hefty transformers built around Japanese steel cores, it's a bit dearer than cheaper metals but the results are excellent.

I just wanted to do a quick sanity check and see what people think of the idea. I have no photos yet, I have some metalwork prepared but not yet printed properly, so am looking for what people think of the principle.

I know you can buy amps from Chinese and hong kong sellers but usually they take weeks to arrive and you have to pay shipping, vat and duty that can add up to £200 per unit. Sending them back for repair is not an option. Mine will be available in the UK, they will be proper 240 volt units, we will sell and support them, they will come with a full years warranty, delivery will be 2 working days once we are fully up and running.

I guess my questions are:
Would you have any interest in such an amp?
What would be the factors that would make you buy it?
What would make you not buy it?
Any comments negative or positive would be very welcome.

Thanks in advance,
Dave.

[HighFidelityGuy]

I like the sound of this. I think this type of idea is what's needed right now. Cheap Chinese imports are often unreliable and dangerous making them not worth the effort. Amps from well know big manufacturers are often prohibitively expensive due to the overheads and mark-ups. So there's definitely a market for something in the middle.

£500 seems a good price point as it's lower than British designed and built stuff like Icon Audio but higher than Chinese designed and badly built. Providing you can ensure that the manufacturer you use can provide a high quality finish then I think you're on to a winner.

I like the sound of the features you listed. The flexibility of the valve mode switching and being able to use it with or without a preamp is excellent. Personally I'd like it if the volume control was bypassed when in power amp mode to ensure it didn't affect the sound.

Self biasing would be nice and a layout that allowed parts to be swapped easily for modding. :eyebrows:

I look forwarded to seeing what you come up with. :popcorn:

[greenhomeelectronics]

Hi, thanks for that feedback, some good points in there. Bypassing the volume control is easy. I have opted for PCB rather than "dangleymode" but parts would be easy enough to swap. Manufacturing will have to be in the far East if I am to meet the price point. Quality control will remain with me in the UK. I have not focused much on looks at the moment, I am more focused on getting an amp that I am happy with sound wise over anything else at the moment, I can always make it look pretty later.
Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

[Welder]

I’m just going to answer the question.
"So What do you Think of Valve amps then ?"
Not a lot under about £2000 so far.

(can’t say its not an honest response)

[Macca]

I’m just going to answer the question.
"So What do you Think of Valve amps then ?"
Not a lot under about £2000 so far.

(can’t say its not an honest response)

My Croft pre was only £350 new and sounds outstandingly good...

If we are talking power amps Icon Audio do one for £450 El84 15wpc. I've not heard it.

[Marco]

Indeed. It's about buying the right valve amp from a manufacturer focussed on offering the highest SPPV, and not on having the highest amount of cash in his or her bank account ;)

Sadly, only a handful of commercial valve amp manufacturers satisfy the above criteria at anything like a reasonable price. Therefore I wish Dave all the best with his venture. All he has to do is focus on delivering maximum sound-per-pound value, and achieve it!

If he does this right (which knowing him I don't suspect otherwise) demand will be high. Lots of people would love to try valve amps (they're definitely in vogue now) but are put off by the high price asked for good ones, and also the potential risk factor involved by 'stepping into the unknown', as it were.

Dave's knowledge and expertise, coupled with his established business infrastructure and guarantee on all his products, should alleviate the potential headache.

AoS will be offering him all the help he needs to get this project off the ground, and so I would encourage any of you interested in going the valve route to support his new venture :cool:

Marco.

[Welder]

There are no doubt exceptions the croft being one.
However, as Marco notes and I think a great many other potential customers for reasonably priced valve amplification will also, there aren’t many great performers under the £2000 mark.
It’s not that I don’t wish Dave every success in his venture. There is undoubtedly a renewed interest in valve amplification.
If I was in the market for such an amp I would be looking for something with a bit more grunt than 15 wpc.
I personally think at the £500 price point it would be hard to produce a valve amp which had sufficient power to drive a large enough speaker range and give a sonic performance to match the recent T Class and derivative offerings, and keep manufacturing quality at a high enough standard not to be lumped in with the bulk of the imports from the Far East.

[Marco]

Hi John,

I understand and appreciate your concerns, and you make a valid point.

However, just as valve amps are in currently in vogue, so to an extent are high-efficiency speakers, such as Tannoys and various OB designs, to name but two, which would easily be driven by 15 quality valve watts. Valve watts too, in my experience, always sound subjectively more powerful, due to how efficiently they handle music signals.

Therefore, it's simply a matter of choosing the right speakers to go with any amps Dave designs, which is always so crucial anyway with ANY valve amp. Not even the Copper amp, with its 40W of pure Class A and huge hand-wound, high quality, mains and output transformers will drive unsuitable loads.

Also, with regard to £500 possibly not being enough to sell a valve amp which fulfils the right criteria, as discussed, experience tells me the opposite.

My first valve amp was a Yaqin, which I imported directly from China. It cost me £300, and it was a dual-mono 30W KT88 design, which was fabulous, outperforming my then £4k ECS 200W SS monoblocks - I kid you not! ;)

The T-class amps I've heard aren't in the same ball park, sonically.

Others will tell you about Mr Liangs and various other quality Chinese designs (which admittedly require some work to make them 100% safe on our mains supply).

Therefore, if Dave can produce something along similar lines that is UK-approved and backed up by a full guarantee, I have no doubt that he'll be onto a winner! :cool:

Marco.

[Ali Tait]

Yes indeed, the Liang was a very good amp, built like a battleship and with high quality circuit boards. I tried various output transformers on a visit to Nick, and the stock ones were actually better better than a set of James, and edged only a little by a pair of amorphous core AE's, which are not cheap!

[greenhomeelectronics]

Thanks for the comments guys, especially to Marco, your support is very much appreciated. I got in to this as a result of having a play with a Yaqin that I picked up as part of a deal. I was really surprised at how good it sounded for such little money and how it enabled my home built transmission line speakers to rattle the China at about quarter clock. It is only rated at 12 watts per channel and it was this that really piqued my interest. I could not understand how 12 watts of valve produced a similar sound pressure level to what Denon called 40 watts per channel of transistor power. I still don't get it:lolsign:
One thing lead to another and I have now spent countless hours fiddling with valves and trying to understand why John Bardine wasted half his life inventing the transistor:lol: I have taken the subjective approach, valve amps are simple beasts and easy to tweak, I have changed components until I have got a sound that I like with my speakers in my room. We have gone for very hefty and high quality output transformers and a good beefy power supply - I believe these components are critical to getting a good foundation. Valve amps are simple beasts with just a handful of components that are critical to the signal path. I am still testing and trying out different speaker combos, only when I am happy will they be unleashed upon an unsuspecting public.

Oh and you heard it here first - they will be marketed under the name of Apollon Audio.

Dave.

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hi Dave,
15 watts of EL34's, excellent quality transformers - this recipe sounds familiar to me.......

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/2492/sta15.png

......if you can come up with a Radford for the 21st Century & come anywhere near the quality that good old Arthur managed for this price, you'll be onto a sure fire winner.
Good luck with your project!

[Ali Tait]

Best of luck Dave, hope these do well for you.

[John]

Hi Dave
I think this is a great idea
I would rather buy from a British manufacturer than importing if they go wrong you really are just really struck
One thing I saw done on one forum to generate interest was to do a road tour which each member reporting back their findings.
I totally aggree good transformers and power supplies really help.
I am really looking forward to see how this will develop
John

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


Thanks for the comments guys, especially to Marco, your support is very much appreciated.


You're welcome, mate. We always support good ideas on AoS which are liable to be cost effective and of benefit to our members. Witness Speedy Steve's bespoke tonearm counterweight service and his Tannoy cabinet builds, and Shuggie's customised arm-plate for the Jelco tonearm, amongst other similar examples :)


I got in to this as a result of having a play with a Yaqin that I picked up as part of a deal. I was really surprised at how good it sounded for such little money and how it enabled my home built transmission line speakers to rattle the China at about quarter clock. It is only rated at 12 watts per channel and it was this that really piqued my interest.


Lol - that's funny, as it was also a Yaqin that piqued my interest in valves, albeit an MC-300B, which was a different design. Yaqins are extremely good and only need to be made safe with a step-down transformer for our (anything up to 260V, in some cases) UK mains supply to offer, quite frankly, astounding performance for the money. If you can replicate something of that ilk for around £500, which is UK approved and guaranteed, then you'll be laughing!


I could not understand how 12 watts of valve produced a similar sound pressure level to what Denon called 40 watts per channel of transistor power. I still don't get it :lolsign:


Ha - this has been discussed many times here and elsewhere.

In layman's terms, it's basically due to valves being natural high current devices, so therefore always have power 'on tap' to deliver transients in music. Whereas low to medium powered transistor amps have to 'hunt' for the current when the music demands, and so effectively the transient has come and gone before the SS amp has 'caught up', as it were, resulting in a lack of drive and headroom, and thus subjectively, lowered perceived loudness capability.

That's kind of what's going on, although someone with the necessary technical knowledge will no doubt be able to explain it better than I.

In my experience, say, 30 good (Class A) valve watts (driving a suitable load) are roughly equivalent to around 300W of transistor power. Your 12W (I suspect single-ended) Yaqin may indeed have sounded rather more powerful than your 40W tranny amp, but my 30W push-pull Yaqin went way louder and cleaner, with significantly more 'grunt', than my old 200W SS monoblocks, each with a 1500VA transformer inside - I kid you not! :eek:

It would probably take something like a huge Krell, which would be totally impractical to house, to produce as much 'welly' into a suitable load as does my 40W Class A copper amp, which is one of the reasons (along with the, IMO, superior musical reproduction qualities of valves) that I doubt that I'd ever return to using transistor amps - certainly anything other than a huge top-notch Class A design.


One thing lead to another and I have now spent countless hours fiddling with valves and trying to understand why John Bardine wasted half his life inventing the transistor:lol: I have taken the subjective approach, valve amps are simple beasts and easy to tweak, I have changed components until I have got a sound that I like with my speakers in my room. We have gone for very hefty and high quality output transformers and a good beefy power supply - I believe these components are critical to getting a good foundation. Valve amps are simple beasts with just a handful of components that are critical to the signal path. I am still testing and trying out different speaker combos, only when I am happy will they be unleashed upon an unsuspecting public.


I'm with you there on all counts, as your experience in that respect directly mirrors mine :)


Oh and you heard it here first - they will be marketed under the name of Apollon Audio.


Nice one, and as I said, we all wish you the best of luck with it :cool:

Marco.

[lurcher]

Yep, if you can get anywhere near the quality of a STA25 for £500 then they should fly off the shelfs. Personally I do have my doubts that its possible to make a sustainable business for £500 a time once you factor costs and profit, but you know your costs, so I wish you every luck with it.


I have taken the subjective approach, valve amps are simple beasts

I would beware with that view though, they may seem simple, but that apparent simplicity does cover more than is obvious at first sight. As in the STA25 reference, the history of phase splitting might be a worthwile area of study, IMHO, the quality of the splitter is at least as important as the output transformers for a PP amp.


We have gone for very hefty and high quality output transformers and a good beefy power supply

Again, using the STA25 as a model, weight is not in itself an important factor for PP output transformers. The Radford ones being a classic example, they are not large, but they are relativly complex to wind.

Those that have never seen a STA25 may be amazed just how small it was.

[Marco]

Hi Nick,

Even if what Dave produces isn't as good as a Radford (rather doubtful), I suspect it'll still be significantly better than the average 'prestige badge', 'hi-fi jewellery' tube designs currently on the hi-end market at hugely inflated prices for the performance on offer! ;)

I think Croft designs, rather than those of Radford, are a better benchmark (and business model) for him to aim for. Remember that Glenn currently produces an all-valve hard-wired preamp with a quality built-in MM phono stage for £350.....! :eek:

If Dave maxes out on the SPPV factor and ignores sonically unnecessary fripperies, as Glenn has been doing successfully for over 30 years, £500 for a quality line-level only integrated valve amp is achievable, especially as Dave is effectively a 'one-man band' working from home (I believe?) and having his designs manufactured in China. Glenn's designs are all made in the UK, and he still turns a profit.

Dave's new project is therefore quite an exciting prospect, as I believe the demand is there for good affordable valve amps, certainly on this and other specialist audio forums, for those whom a soldering iron and themselves are mutually incompatible! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[lurcher]

Yes, as I said, I do genuinly hope this succeededs, but there is a significant difference between a preamp with a handfull of nine pin valves and a couple of mosfets and a push pull valve power amplifier. Thats not to critisise the Croft products, as you know, I think they are a clever and well designed set of choices that provides very good results at a low cost. But the cost of shipping a PP amp back from the customer to base finding nothing wrong with it and back to the customer alone means that every support problem will eat into any small profit margin that is made for every other sale.

[Marco]

Yup - and point taken.

However, remember that Glenn also builds equally cost-effective valve power amps, which are just as high on the SPPV factor, therefore I do feel that if Dave does this right, a £500 S/E or P/P integrated design, built in China, is not beyond the realms of possibility. I suspect that Dave will already have factored in the eventualities you mention, as he's not new to running a business :)

A UK-safe assured Yaqin or Mr Liang is what he needs to strive for. If he can do that within the costs he's calculated, he'll be ok.

Anyway, mate, let's see how things go. I think that, despite some small reservations, we're all firmly behind him. Aside from anything else, I'm sure he'll appreciate the feedback :cool:

Marco.

[greenhomeelectronics]

Hi Folks, glad to see that some discussion is happenning, all comments are most welcome.

It is going to be very hard to meet that price point, especially if the pound / dollar ratio changes too much in an unfavourable direction!!

I do think I can do it though, I don't work from home any more, I have offices and a warehouse but they are in a particularly unsavoury location so nice and cheap:lol:

I take the point on the transformers, big is not necessarily best, the point I was trying to make is that we are not skimping on these expensive but critical components.

I don't see why we shouldn't get something that will please and surprise people, results so far have been encouraging enough for me to post here. I need to work on the aesthetics a but but don't want to get drawn in to adding 80 quids worth of shiny schmutter, it's all about the music at the end of the day.

Thanks again for your comments, guys, they have been noted. I particularly like the idea of a volume control bypass, I will be looking in to that one.
All the best,
Dave.

[chris@panteg]

Hi Dave

Very interesting project , any possibility of KT88's instead EL34's though ?

Not a big fan of the 34 i must say , too pipe and slipper's for me:eyebrows:

[Spectral Morn]

Sounds like a great idea Dave and I wish you the best for this project.

It should be possible to do as Audio Innovations had valve amplifiers at both the £300 and £500 price point, back in the late 80's. Both built and designed in the UK. So it should still be possible one hopes to do the same thing. Those AI amps prices also had a dealer margin built in too. However I think the only way to do it now to be even close to the price would be selling direct and it will be somewhat tight to do.

I like the El34 sound but would concede that 5881 or 6L6s have the edge both in sound quality and reliability. Output transfomers of good enough quality will eat up quite a bit of the build cost and transfomer quality is a great deal of what makes a good valve amplifier what it is; so you can't skimp in this area.


Regards D S D L

[greenhomeelectronics]

There might well be 6l6 or KT88 versions further down the line, I will see how this one goes first. I am also thinking of a pre amp but that will only happen if the first amp makes me some money. Doing a KT88 at the price point I am aiming for would be really hard, if not impossible.

[chris@panteg]

Fair enough :)

[greenhomeelectronics]

Slight update - the first pre production unit will be finished next week, if all goes well and the production works out ok we will go to launch shortly after. Bit os a cock up on the pricing for shipping and the transformers (some bright sod quoted me for one output transformer per unit) has meant the 500 price is not achievable unless we cut something, which I am not prepared to do. It will still come in at under 600 so I still think it's great value.
We will be launching at the Bracknell Audiofayre on the 17th April, after that we will be looking for people to try one out and let us know what they think.
If you want to have a go with one, please let me know.
Best and all that,
Dave.

[HighFidelityGuy]

Hi Dave, I'd like to try one out please. I'll soon be able to compare it against a couple of EL84 amps and my big solid state monoblocks. Cheers. :)

[greenhomeelectronics]

Thanks, interest noted. I will probably only have one or two to pass around, will let you know nearer the time.
Dave.

[DSJR]

Dave, he may charge for the service, but Mr Anthony TD here seems to know a thing or two about GOOD valve gear and may be able to offer some advice if you haven't sought it already of course...

EL34's don't have to be pipe and slippers. Both my Radford and later Tube Technology amps sounded bright and almost solid-state like. My "Crofted" Quads don't sound thick or syrupy either - band limited certainly, but not thick-toned or sloppy in the bass.

The important thing is to do a Glenn Croft and have a stable circuit not balanced on a knife edge, which can safely under-run the valves and components so that the thing is reliable and lasts for many years without service or headaches for you or the end-user.

By the way, Glenns power amps are now hybrids with valve drivers and MOS-FET (I believe) output stages, the R series having larger or twin supplies mainly...

[chris@panteg]

Dave, he may charge for the service, but Mr Anthony TD here seems to know a thing or two about GOOD valve gear and may be able to offer some advice if you haven't sought it already of course...

EL34's don't have to be pipe and slippers. Both my Radford and later Tube Technology amps sounded bright and almost solid-state like. My "Crofted" Quads don't sound thick or syrupy either - band limited certainly, but not thick-toned or sloppy in the bass.

The important thing is to do a Glenn Croft and have a stable circuit not balanced on a knife edge, which can safely under-run the valves and components so that the thing is reliable and lasts for many years without service or headaches for you or the end-user.

By the way, Glenns power amps are now hybrids with valve drivers and MOS-FET (I believe) output stages, the R series having larger or twin supplies mainly...

Hi Dave

I had a pair of Quads modified by the late Dougie Dunlop , used them for about 4 years , they were lovely sweet sounding amps but no where near enough grunt for me ! I remember Alan sircom or Roy Gregory in a review , describing them as a bit of an old man's amp :eyebrows: bit harsh perhaps .

The best they ever sounded though was with a pair of ESL57's which Darryl (Concordant agent and friend) had at the time , i should have bought them off him :doh:

[greenhomeelectronics]

Thanks guys, most of the engineering is being done by other people as my valve knowledge is not sufficient to know what is good and bad practice. It has been explained to me many times but in a strange foreign language where I can recognise only a few words:) I am mainly listening to it and then feeding back my comments. It's quite a long drawn out process as we don't want to end up with an amp that sounds great on one set up and not so good on others. Each time we make a change we are checking it on various different speaker set ups (my own transmission lines, a pair of monitor audios, pair of dm602's etc.). I always prefer to try stuff out in the real world, no amount of theory and measurement can replace a good pair of ears.

[smurfbrain]

Hi Dave,
You may borrow my ears at some point:eyebrows:

[John]

I love to try one out and report back

[greenhomeelectronics]

Martin smurfbrain, as you are in Bracknell and therefore very near to me you may well be one of the first to get to have a listen. John, I have noted your interest too - thanks. Things are still on schedule for the first pre-production one arriving some time next week - probably towards the end. We already have some minor cosmetic changes in mind but the circuitry is now pretty much determined.
Dave.

[smurfbrain]

Dave, its closer than you think, less than a minute of driving.

[anthonyTD]

Hi Dave,
just wanted to wish you luck with this new venture, as others have said [and i have to agree] it is quite a task these days to produce a decent performing all valve design made from UK sourced parts for under say £1,500 let alone for under £600.
your a business man so have obviously looked into the costs and profit margins of taking on a project like this so i wont insult your inteligence, i just hope you have dialed in a decent profit margin to make it worthwhile, and also as Nick [lurcher] stated you have made allowances for every eventuality ie repairs seviceing etc within the first year.
I think there is a market for a decent 15 to 30 watt push-pull valve design, built with sourced parts and components here in the UK, at the right price, The main problem at the moment is [and has been for a while now]when people see amps like the Yaqin 100B coming into the uk for under £400 with its dual mono circuitry and looks to boot you not only have to build something that will out perform it, but also match it on Aesthetics.
Anthony,TD...

[greenhomeelectronics]

Hi anthonyTD, thank you for your comments, it has been a hell of a job getting the things in on price. I got a bit lucky by sourcing some previously designed metal work which cut the design costs significantly. The company I have building them are a huge company with excess capacity and a boss that loves valve amps:) They have the skills at the right price. Shipping costs come right down by buying in a lot at a time and having them shipped by sea - one unit by air is about the same as 5 units by sea. I have plenty of warehouse space spare to allow this, I can therefore buy them in in advance and still offer immediate despatch. The price is set where I think I can make enough while opening up the world of valve amps to a wider audience. I take note of your comments re aesthetics, I will be the first to admit that my amp is not the prettiest on the block, I want it to look nice without upping the price 100 quid for no benefit to the listening enjoyment. It looks well enough as is, there may be some improvements before the final production begins. I think the appearance will appeal to the more traditional valve appreciators.
The Yaqin 100b looks like a very nice unit, it has had some good reviews too. The problem as I see it is that if you have to send it back for whatever reason you are in for a £130 shipping bill.
It will be interesting to see how it goes, I think we have a product that represents excellent value, I am extremely pleased with the results, I hope others will be too. We will offer all the support and servicing in the UK, there will never be any duty to be paid, the price you see is the price you pay - the usual ebay sellers usually add a nasty caveat that duty and VAT have to be paid, which adds another 25 per cent to the purchase price - this includes the cost of shipping putting another £100 on the price of a £400 unit.

I didn't intend to bang on quite like that, i hope it does not sound defensive. You raised some good points and I really do appreciate the input. Hopefully you can have a listen some time and let me know what you think.
Dave.

[hifi_dave]

I didn't want to rain on his parade but as Anthony has pointed out, it's going to be tough trying to produce a tube/valve based amp for £500 or so.

Talking with three long established designer/manufacturers of amplifiers recently, I have been horrified at the prices of quality British made components. Mains and output transformers for a small integrated or power-amp are likely to cost £400-500 at trade price and then there is the metalwork and decent volume and selector switches. Factor in some semi decent tubes and we are probably way over £500 at rock bottom trade.

You then need all the other components, mains lead, connectors, packing, shipping and the necessary EEC and safety testing. Oh and some labour and a bit of profit to make it worth doing...:scratch:

[anthonyTD]

I didn't want to rain on his parade but as Anthony has pointed out, it's going to be tough trying to produce a tube/valve based amp for £500 or so.

Talking with three long established designer/manufacturers of amplifiers recently, I have been horrified at the prices of quality British made components. Mains and output transformers for a small integrated or power-amp are likely to cost £400-500 at trade price and then there is the metalwork and decent volume and selector switches. Factor in some semi decent tubes and we are probably way over £500 at rock bottom trade.

You then need all the other components, mains lead, connectors, packing, shipping and the necessary EEC and safety testing. Oh and some labour and a bit of profit to make it worth doing...:scratch:

Sad but true!:(
Anthony,TD...

[anthonyTD]

Hi anthonyTD, thank you for your comments, it has been a hell of a job getting the things in on price. I got a bit lucky by sourcing some previously designed metal work which cut the design costs significantly. The company I have building them are a huge company with excess capacity and a boss that loves valve amps:) They have the skills at the right price. Shipping costs come right down by buying in a lot at a time and having them shipped by sea - one unit by air is about the same as 5 units by sea. I have plenty of warehouse space spare to allow this, I can therefore buy them in in advance and still offer immediate despatch. The price is set where I think I can make enough while opening up the world of valve amps to a wider audience. I take note of your comments re aesthetics, I will be the first to admit that my amp is not the prettiest on the block, I want it to look nice without upping the price 100 quid for no benefit to the listening enjoyment. It looks well enough as is, there may be some improvements before the final production begins. I think the appearance will appeal to the more traditional valve appreciators.
The Yaqin 100b looks like a very nice unit, it has had some good reviews too. The problem as I see it is that if you have to send it back for whatever reason you are in for a £130 shipping bill.
It will be interesting to see how it goes, I think we have a product that represents excellent value, I am extremely pleased with the results, I hope others will be too. We will offer all the support and servicing in the UK, there will never be any duty to be paid, the price you see is the price you pay - the usual ebay sellers usually add a nasty caveat that duty and VAT have to be paid, which adds another 25 per cent to the purchase price - this includes the cost of shipping putting another £100 on the price of a £400 unit.


I didn't intend to bang on quite like that, i hope it does not sound defensive. You raised some good points and I really do appreciate the input. Hopefully you can have a listen some time and let me know what you think.
Dave.

Hi Dave,
Thats fine, your obviously very passionate about your goal here, i will continue to read of your progress with interest!:)
Anthony,TD...

[HighFidelityGuy]

Sad but true!:(
Anthony,TD...

I guess that'll be the UK government taxing british industry out of the market as usual. :rolleyes:

It's so sad that there's no way you can have equipment like this manufactured in the UK from british parts if you want to compete in the sub £1k market. :( We need to bring back the good old days of british industry.

[hifi_dave]

It's not just Hi-Fi that's expensive, what about :

Petrol at £6/gallon. I remember protests when it went above £1

Cars. Everywhere I look I see people driving £40K - £50K cars.

Train fares. £30 round trip to London from Saffron Walden. That's a serious outlay for a relatively short trip.

Council Tax. FFS it used to be a small bill that you didn't have to fret about.

Gas + Electricity. As above. It now costs way over £1K to heat your average home for a year and it's going up in huge chunks.

Food prices have gone up massively since last year. Almost 30% I believe.

And so on and on. How do pensioners manage to even eat let alone live a decent life on their derisory pension ?

[Rare Bird]

Hi Dave
When i look whats left out of our wages each month after Tax/NI 'n' all the bills etc i sometime wonder why i bother tbh..

[greenhomeelectronics]

Thanks for the comments, of course you can't build an amp of this quality in the UK, using all UK components at this price point. Not a cat in hells chance for under £1K. I am not getting in to a blow by blow of how we have done it but I have always thought that the companies that survive in a down market are not those that sell well but those that buy well.

[Marco]

Things seem to be progressing nicely, Dave. I love how you're *totally* focussed on achieving your goal - that's precisely how I am in business! :respect:

Marco.

[HighFidelityGuy]

It's very true, everything is ridiculously expensive now and wages aren't going up to compensate. Nowadays it seems that unless you're a banking exec you're not worth paying properly. :rolleyes:

[Alex_UK]

Nowadays it seems that unless you're a banking exec you're not worth paying properly. :rolleyes:

Which is exactly as it should be, given that it was the hard working little people and small businesses that got us into this financial mess in the first place, only fair that those that bailed us out should benefit. Oh, hang on... :wanker: :wanker::wanker::wanker::wanker:

[HighFidelityGuy]

Thanks for the comments, of course you can't build an amp of this quality in the UK, using all UK components at this price point. Not a cat in hells chance for under £1K. I am not getting in to a blow by blow of how we have done it but I have always thought that the companies that survive in a down market are not those that sell well but those that buy well.

That's very true. It's no use selling a million amps at a million quid each if they cost you a million quid to make. :lol:

[HighFidelityGuy]

Which is exactly as it should be, given that it was the hard working little people and small businesses that got us into this financial mess in the first place, only fair that those that bailed us out should benefit. Oh, hang on... :wanker: :wanker::wanker::wanker::wanker:

Don't get me started. I'm likely to drive down to London and beat one of the tossers to death with their own shoes. :steam:;)

[Alex_UK]

Sorry we're diverting attention here from Dave's project. Wish you all the best with it Dave, are you able to give us a teaser piccie yet?

[greenhomeelectronics]

I feel sorry for this poor bastard: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12691377

I don't have a piccy yet, my prototype is not looking very photogenic at the moment and the pre production prototype front panel has not been printed yet. All I have is a rather uninspring line drawing.

As soon as I have the finished article in my grubby mitts I will post a photo.

Dave.

[wee tee cee]

If it sounds better than my naim 5 then I would buy one.Can anyone advise,would using the variable volume on squeeze box duet be detremental to sound quality.Its nice having a remote volume facility,saves me having to jump up and down.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

Do you think you could match this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/YAQIN-MC-100B-KT88-Tube-Vaccum-Integrated-Amplifier-SV-/260752236881?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item3cb60b6151

;)

That's the amp which started me off down the path to thermionic audio nirvana!

Marco.

[wee tee cee]

Just out of interest,do you have to pay duty on top of the postage charge.
I am quite keen to try a tube amp to see if it will reduce my obsession with sibilance.The yaqin amps have caught my eye just the usual worries about voltage/repair/service and the bamboozling array of valves/adjustment..

[HighFidelityGuy]

Just out of interest,do you have to pay duty on top of the postage charge.
I am quite keen to try a tube amp to see if it will reduce my obsession with sibilance.The yaqin amps have caught my eye just the usual worries about voltage/repair/service and the bamboozling array of valves/adjustment..

Yep, you usually have to pay import duty and VAT on top of postage. I think I had to pay about £40 on top of the preamp I imported. I then had to spend hours making the amp safe and after all that it didn't sound very good. :doh: My conclusion is that you have to look at most of the Chinese amps on ebay as part finished projects. Many aren't earthed properly making them death traps, some don't have proper 240V capable transformers and most need at least new valves to sound good. So unless you are comfortable with spending extra cash on import tax, repairs and upgrades then I wouldn't bother. You get what you pay for at the end of the day.

Dave's amps will be designed, built and tested to a much higher standard than any of the cheap ebay stuff. Then you get the extra UK after sales care. When you consider you're getting all that with less hassle it easily makes his amp worth the extra money. :)

[Reid Malenfant]

Just out of interest,do you have to pay duty on top of the postage charge.
I am quite keen to try a tube amp to see if it will reduce my obsession with sibilance.The yaqin amps have caught my eye just the usual worries about voltage/repair/service and the bamboozling array of valves/adjustment..
If customs & excise catches it & bills you you are looking at VAT at 20% added on top of anything over £18 in value. If the purchase cost was over about £140 (? :scratch:) then you'll be paying about 4% import duty on top of that as well..

Plus you'll have to pay about £8 for the letter & admin fees informing you of the charges, nice eh :eyebrows:

[greenhomeelectronics]

Vat and duty get charged on the whole lot eg product and shipping. It adds 24% to the total price. It's really important to buy lots in and ship by sea, the shipping costs for 10 units are about the same as shipping one by air. When you then add the duty on it can make a pretty big number. Getting the shipping costs down has been a big issue for us.

We have had the sample screen printing in now, I have settled on the final design, only exception being the speaker terminals. The current ones are nasty cheap things which are ok for testing but not good enough for production.
The first demo unit should be out of the factory on the 22nd and with me about 5 days later. I will get some photos done and posted here, you guys get to see it first:) I am currently looking at about the 29th / 30th March.
It's been a long haul but we are just about there now.
Dave.

[Marco]

Great stuff, Dave - can't wait to see a pic of the first full production model! :)

Marco.

[greenhomeelectronics]

Hi Marco! That Yaqin is a very nice looking beast, if I am to be honest mine is not nearly as blingy. When you add shipping and duty that one comes out at just under the 500 mark, whoever is selling them can't be making a lot. I have not heard that model, it was the MC84L that got me started. I am confident that mine will sound superb, I can't say it will sound better than something I have never heard but I am confident mine will be well worth the money and will find a willing market. I could try and find some ways to slag off the Yaqin but I don't do business like that, I prefer to let my kit do the talking for me.
Best and all that,
Dave.

[lurcher]

if I am to be honest mine is not nearly as blingy

Some may feel that is no bad thing :-)

[Rare Bird]

Some may feel that is no bad thing :-)

+1. blingy things i wont buy because in reality they are made that way for show offs.plain ugly is good in my book.

[Marco]

I think that 'functional' is the word we're looking for... ;)

And I certainly didn't buy the Yaqin for its looks! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[andybee33]

If it sounds better than my naim 5 then I would buy one.

+1 - I'm just in the process of upgrading my hifi - first steps into 'proper' hardware and, having purchased some nice used Harbeth monitors, the next step is the amp. Clearly, I've been considering the usual suspects (used Nait 5i, Kandy K2 etc) and had regarded decent valve amplification as out of my league. However, if this is going to be available around £600 it will be a very interesting alternative. I wonder if there will be one available to listen to in the Frozen North? Do you/will you have any dealers?

Cheers - Andy

[Fatsiuyau]

I am too looking for an affordable valve amp to drive my new ProAC Tablettes Ref 8 Signature. I have posted in another thread about my quest for valves amplification, and to be honest, not much to be had NEW within my price point upto £600. Buying used is an option, but again, the so called entry level models by the likes of Prima Luna/Pure Sound are roughly £700-£1,000 secondhand, again, no come back if things go wrong. As already mentioned, going the eBay China route is a no no. So more or less decided to pay Icon Audio a visit in Leicester to check out their Stereo 25 model, but a price hike from £599 to £799 last month put a stop to that LOL!!

Then I found hifiandaudio.com in Northamptonshire, http://www.hifiandaudio.com/e34i.htm, no shop no demo fascility online outfit bringing in Separo amps from China and 'tested and inspected' for UK 'spec' then sold online, very much similar to Dave's concept? They have 4 models and the £425 (+£30 postage) E34i caught my eye, emailed them and out of stock until end of June. 90 days UK warranty only, after 90 days all repairs go back to China and you are responsible for the round trip shipping costs:mental: Searched online for info on Separo amps, nothing except about the factory in China. No reviews no user comment anywhere, then from my Wanted Ad in another forum, got offered a used Separo E34i for a decent £200, not sure if it was supplied by hifiandaudio.com or a direct import from China, so again, reluctant to give it a try as my first valve amp.

So I am very interested in what Dave is doing here, and I hope to hear some reviews once the amps are available, perhaps a trip down to Bracknell very soon for me?

[Greg2010]

Hi John,
You could contact Haden Boardman, he's based not far from you in Bolton. He's a croft dealer and very knowledgeable, he usually has a number of valve amps of varying price/quality about him. I have bought from him previously and he was willing to let me demo whatever I was interested in at the time which may solve your quandary. I would recommend his service without hesitation.
I'll see if I can dig out his email address, if your interested, pm me.

Regards
Greg

[wee tee cee]

I have been listening to a Art Audio Quintet valve amp very generously loaned to me by my mate.I must admit the valve sound is very enjoyable.I have switched back and forth between my Naim and the power amp/pre.I have eventually settled on just using the power amp and my computer or squeeze box as the volume control.The sounds much more listenable.It is different whether its better would depend on what you like.Daves amp is a very similar configuration and Iam sure will provide the same benefits...I look forward to hearing one.

[Fatsiuyau]

Hi John,
You could contact Haden Boardman, he's based not far from you in Bolton. He's a croft dealer and very knowledgeable, he usually has a number of valve amps of varying price/quality about him. I have bought from him previously and he was willing to let me demo whatever I was interested in at the time which may solve your quandary. I would recommend his service without hesitation.
I'll see if I can dig out his email address, if your interested, pm me.

Regards
Greg

Hi Greg, thanks for the info, sure like to hear a few amps if there is the fascility nearby. Does he have a shop in Bolton?

Regards, John

[Greg2010]

Hi John,
Last time I saw him he was working out of his home which was packed with numerous goodies, it's enjoyable just looking around :) and his technical knowledge is excellent.

He also advertises on ebay I'll pm you the details I have.

Regards
Greg