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Thread: Classical music for people that (think they) don't like classical music

  1. Default Classical music for people that (think they) don't like classical music

    My theory is that a lot of people who would like classical music are put off by lack of knowledge, and a sort of fear of the unknown

    Firstly, the term ‘classical music’ is about as meaningful as ‘world music’. The term ‘classical music’ actually means Haydn, Mozart, early Beethoven and their contemporaries – music written in a few decades. That is as specific as ‘country and western’. But, the way it is now used, frankly the term really only seems to mean ‘music I think I don’t like’ (as opposed to music I know I don’t like, like reggae).

    Secondly, there’s a hell of a lot of it. People have been at it for 800 years. Well, you don’t need to know it all, instantly. I am going to suggest an easy way in.

    Thirdly, it’s boring. Well, since it doesn’t bore everyone, that feeling of boredom must be in the listener, not some mysterious attribute of the music itself. The remedy for that is to stay curious. Be interested in it. Give yourself permission not to like, or want to hear that piece again. Certainly, don’t expect it to be ‘beautiful’, though some of it is.

    So, my way in is to go for music written since 1900. And, on the whole stick to orchestral music. Here are ten C20 composers whose orchestral music is worth exploring. Works cited are recommendations, not the composers’ entire output.

    Bartók

    Much influenced by the inflections of his native Hungarian folk music, Bartók’s music is rhythmic and dynamic. He was an excellent pianist and there are three great piano concertos, as well as two violin concertos, viola concerto, concerto for orchestra, two ballets, of which The miraculous mandarin is startling and deeply psychological, as is his only opera, the short Bluebeard’s castle (this is an opera for people who don’t like opera – it is a continuous stream of melody for an hour, but it’s dark, if brilliantly conceived).

    Mahler

    He started before 1900: the works form 1900 on are the symphonies 5-10, Kindertotenlieder, Rückertlieder, Das Lied von der Erde (not many people realise that Mahler only wrote 17 works in his entire life). If you insist (!) do explore the earlier works.

    Nielsen

    Danish master. Wrote six symphonies which, like those of Sibelius, show tremendous development as he matured (maybe try 4 first). Violin, flute and clarinet concertos, smaller pieces for orchestra. A very individual tone of voice: fresh, like mountain air; energetic and vigorous, none of yer Straussian lounging about.

    Prokofiev

    Prokofiev wrote symphonies too, but he was really a man of the stage – some of his symphonies are reworked stage music, though symphonies 5 and 6 are great works. Two great violin concertos. But it is the stage works which really show Prokofiev in his element: Romeo and Juliet, Cinderella. All worth exploring.

    Ravel

    Not prolific, but his ballet Daphnis et Chloé is fantastic (pass by the suites – go for the whole thing), then there’s Mother goose, Shéhérazade, Rapsodie espagnole, two piano concertos, two fantastic brief operas - L’enfant et les sortilèges and L’heure espagnole (he had a thing about Spain). He also had a dark side which adds interest to the superb orchestration and general Gallic charm. Let us draw a veil over the Bolero.

    Shostakovich

    A complex character – apparently introverted, but capable of writing big epic scores as well as reflecting his introversion in his music. There’s a strong vein of wit and drollery in his music, too. Altogether a complex, contradictory mix which is very interesting. Immediately obvious works include symphonies 1, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 – perhaps go for 5 first. He was also a tool of the soviet system and, of necessity, some of his music is propagandist which is why I have put some other symphonies in a second ‘political’ division. Then there are concertos for violin, cello, piano. Film music even.

    Sibelius

    The great Finnish composer. He started out like a more disciplined Tchaikovsky, without the selfpity (and not being Russian), and gradually evolved to produce lithe athletic masterpieces. Seven symphonies (try 2 and 5 first perhaps), a violin concerto, an early unnumbered choral symphony called Kullervo and in particular, a whole series of short ‘tone poems’ based on stories form myth and legend which he wrote throughout his life. The four Lemminkainen Legends are particularly exciting.

    Strauss

    Strauss was also active before 1900, and I will cheat and go back five years to include his great symphonic poems, Till Eulenspiegel and Don Quixote. He wrote ten of these, including Also sprach Zarathustra, whose first 3 minutes are without doubt his best known writing! Also lots of good songs with orchestra, including Four last songs, and other works produced towards the end of his life (Metamorphosen, two indulgently long wind serenades. oboe concerto, horn concerto). If you’re brave, lots of operas, from the bloodcurdling Salome to the charming Ariadne auf Naxos.

    Stravinsky

    Well, there are lots of Stravinskys. In particular go for the big ballets (Firebird, Rite of spring, Petrushka), Les noces [The wedding] – very earthy and Russian, the neo-classical works (symphony in C, Pulcinella, Apollo, Dumbarton Oaks, etc). Possibly the stuff written after 1954 is hard going, but Agon is attractive enough.

    Tippett

    Great English composer, currently going through the traditional post-death period of neglect. A wonderfully generous and humane man which shows in his music. Maybe start with the Concerto for double string orchestra, the Fantasia concertante on a theme of Corelli (which sounds dry but is actually energetic and engaging reaching an ecstatic climax) and the oratorio A child of our time. Move on to the piano concerto and, if you’re warming to the man by this time, go for the opera The midsummer marriage. These last two are of the period of the Corelli work and they all share a fantastic combination of energy and ecstasy. Then there are four symphonies, some concertos and much else. The later operas can perhaps wait.
    ---
    That’s all for now.
    Last edited by Jeremy Marchant; 21-07-2009 at 21:29.

  2. #2
    Join Date: May 2008

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    I'm Nick.

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    I love the modernists - the 'minimalists' like Steve Reich, John Adams, Philip Glass and (in small doses) Michael Nyman (his stuff all sounds too samey!) - there's something about what they do with an orchestra that speaks to me in a way that the earlier composers don't. I figure it's down to their use of rhythm and (obviously) repetition that has more in common with later movements, in particular dance music and electronica, that makes it more easily accessible.

    Like you say the term 'classical' is near useless - the two analogies you make of 'world' music and country and western are spot on - as a fan of both I know exactly what you mean about different strands being unfairly 'lumped' under a lazy genre heading. This need to classify music into genre pigeonholes closes off whole swathes of music to so many people. Vive la variation!

    It seems from your introduction that you're not drawn to the composers I mention above - is this because you don't see them as part of the 'classical' tradition?

    If I were to recommend 5 records to whet the appetite of people who don't like 'classical music' I'd have to say:

    Steve Reich - Music For 18 Musicians
    John Adams - Shaker Loops
    Philip Glass - Glassworks (or Dancepieces)
    Steve Reich - Six Marimbas (or Six Pianos)
    Steve Reich - City Life

    This sends chills down my spine every time I hear it...

    [SIZE="1"]Nick

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  3. #3
    Join Date: Apr 2008

    Location: Chester

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    Jeremy.
    I am one of those who don't really like "classical" music.
    I find that orchestral works generally sound disappointingly unrealistic.
    Smaller scale stuff with just a few instruments often seem to make more sense.
    I have been to the occasional concert in the past and found them quite entertaining. However, i have yet to hear any system do justice to this type of music. The same applies to brass bands IMHO.

    At least with other genres, the brain can be fooled into thinking that instruments sound quite convincing.

    Maybe you could post a list of well recorded classical stuff, to help us avoid the flat and undynamic recordings.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Oct 2008

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    I'm Jason.

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    I to tally agree with you Jeremy, for the uninitiated (amongst whom I count myself) classical music is a minefield.

    One nice thing about classical, being a vinyl junkie - you can get very cheap classical LPs in most charidee shops. I've taken to buying any in decent condition (with a self-imposed price cap of £1 if they're unknown to me), getting to know performers/orchestras/conductors who are 'worth a punt'. I figure that if I don't like it, I can either give it back (think of it as a donation) or pass them on to friends.

    I've also found the advice of a good friend who's a classical afficionado worth it's weight in gold... but you have to 'kiss a few frogs' on the way to finding out what works for you...

    Jason
    ----------------------
    Before you criticise a man, walk a mile in his shoes. Then, when you do - you'll be a mile away. And have his shoes.

    Wavy grooves go thru a RigB 540ML on an SL1500C. Digits stream from a cheapie CDP and a Sonos, into a Yamaha 803D driving Kralk Audio little 'uns. I used to have a Linn but I'm better now.

  5. #5
    Join Date: Apr 2009

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    Excellent stuff - I heartily agree, the first time I had a go at "classical" music I dived straight into stuff I had heard of (Mozart, Beethoven, etc.) and didn't much like it.

    Think I will now be trying out some of those composers on your list (never tried Bartok).

    May I also suggest Rachmaninov as an "easy way in". I challenge anyone not to like his piano preludes played in anger. My girlfriend sometimes playes these on her piano at home - fantastic!

    Cheers
    Tom

  6. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Beechwoods View Post
    It seems from your introduction that you're not drawn to the composers I mention above - is this because you don't see them as part of the 'classical' tradition?
    On the contrary! I was coming to them. It is the sort of music, though, which stretches the definition of classical beyond any meaningful limit, in my view.

    I have made an arrangement for soloists, choir and orchestra of Glass's Songs from liquid days, and enjoyed meeting Mr Glass and hearing him tell me to my face that he approved of the arrangement (it was the occasion of his 60th birthday concert in London, when I was in the choir singing act 2 of Satyagraha). It's on CD, but modesty naturally prevents me from recommending it (or even mentioning it), though keen Glasslovers might find it interesting to compare my version with the original.

    Excellent suggestions, if I may say. But I would add:

    John Adams - Harmonium for chorus and orchestra. I'd argue it's his best ever piece (though Shaker loops is pretty good, Harmonium gets you by the emotions big time). (Sung that one, too!)

    Philip Glass - Koyaanisqatsi. Seminal work. Get the Nonesuch soundtrack, not the earlier one. Better, get the DVD: it's 80 mins of pure Glass - no speech whatever. The grid, approximately the third quarter, is exhilarating and then some.

    May I also suggest Rachmaninov as an "easy way in".
    Agreed, I was trying to keep a geographical balance and stick to ten composers. Personal favourite is the Symphonic dances, then the second symphony - all yearning and churning.
    Last edited by Jeremy Marchant; 22-07-2009 at 20:12.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Apr 2009

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    I'm Confused.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beechwoods View Post
    I love the modernists - the 'minimalists' like Steve Reich, John Adams, Philip Glass and (in small doses) Michael Nyman (his stuff all sounds too samey!) - there's something about what they do with an orchestra that speaks to me in a way that the earlier composers don't. I figure it's down to their use of rhythm and (obviously) repetition that has more in common with later movements, in particular dance music and electronica, that makes it more easily accessible.

    Like you say the term 'classical' is near useless - the two analogies you make of 'world' music and country and western are spot on - as a fan of both I know exactly what you mean about different strands being unfairly 'lumped' under a lazy genre heading. This need to classify music into genre pigeonholes closes off whole swathes of music to so many people. Vive la variation!

    It seems from your introduction that you're not drawn to the composers I mention above - is this because you don't see them as part of the 'classical' tradition?

    If I were to recommend 5 records to whet the appetite of people who don't like 'classical music' I'd have to say:

    Steve Reich - Music For 18 Musicians - This sends chills down my spine every time I hear it...
    John Adams - Shaker Loops
    Philip Glass - Glassworks (or Dancepieces)
    Steve Reich - Six Marimbas (or Six Pianos)
    Steve Reich - City Life
    Attn. Nick (of the Beechwoods variety),
    Don't know why it took me so long but tonight I pressed the 'Play' button on the YouTube clip - great, innit? I could certainly listen to a bit more of that - must look it out next time I'm in town or maybe on Amazon's web page.
    Thanks for the pointer.
    Cheers,
    DaveK.

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  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2009

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    I'm joe.

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    This is good stuff. I got into classical music via the safe stuff (Mozart, Haydn, Chopin) and am slowly extending my tastes. As Jeremy said in another thread, for non-fans, 20th century classical music may actually be a better way in than the 'standard' repertoire. I'm personally very fond of Bartok's String Quartets, my LP of which, with the Fine Arts Quartet, was bought for next to nothing from TonyL at PFM*.

    *advert.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alb View Post
    Jeremy.
    I am one of those who don't really like "classical" music.
    I find that orchestral works generally sound disappointingly unrealistic.
    ... However, i have yet to hear any system do justice to this type of music. The same applies to brass bands IMHO.

    At least with other genres, the brain can be fooled into thinking that instruments sound quite convincing.

    Maybe you could post a list of well recorded classical stuff, to help us avoid the flat and undynamic recordings.
    Do you mean CDs of orchestral works sound unrealistic? I agree. Even with quite a good system, I find that I can sometimes think 'God, this sounds awful!' However, I do find I can easily suspend my disbelief, even though I am not a great concertgoer and therefore don't have regular fixes of reality to recalibrate my ear/brain system.

    I've been lucky enough to hear some systems which do do justice to the recordings - one high end Naim system with Adam Tensor Betas did the job nicely, thank you.

    When you ask for a list of well recorded stuff, I'd say that probably 50% of all recordings ever made were good soundwise, or better. The other 50% offend usually because they've crassly engineered in one way or another.

    So, when you say you want to avoid flat and undynamic recordings I infer that's how you experience some/many classical orchestral recordings. Or is it the music, to your ears, that is flat and undynamic? I can't say it's my experience, but that's not to gainsay the validity of yours, naturally. I've used a Linn/Naim system, of one sort or another, for 30 years and, it's true, it isn't shy about coming forward - maybe that colours my perception of recordings.

    I don't know where to start in terms of well recorded orchestral CDs, because I would argue there are so many. However, if you want something outrageously not flat and not undynamic, try Varese's Arcana. It's on a cheap 2CD set of the complete surviving music of Varese (conducted by Riccardo Chailly on Decca). The recording (I think) is excellent as is the performance. After an early performance of Arcana, the press wrote "so unendurable to many of the listeners that they fled".

  10. #10
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Lancaster(-ish), UK

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    I'm ChrisB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Marchant View Post
    try Varese's Arcana. It's on a cheap 2CD set of the complete surviving music of Varese (conducted by Riccardo Chailly on Decca). The recording (I think) is excellent as is the performance. After an early performance of Arcana, the press wrote "so unendurable to many of the listeners that they fled".
    I was listening to Arcana on Saturday!! Naxos: Varese Orchestral Works Vol.1
    Didn't feel the need to flee, though!

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