Squeezebox Classic compared to TC-7520

[nb2]

Hello,

I have been using a Squeezebox Classic for more than a year now, mainly with flac files and internet radios.
I am very happy with it.

3 monthes ago, I bought a TC-7520 for two reasons
- I wanted to see how the TC-7520 as a standalone DAC (fixed output) compares to Squeezebox internal DAC
- I needed a USB DAC, something the Squeezebox cannot achieve.

My speakers are PMC DB1i speakers.
At first I had an old Yamaha homecinema prologic amplifier, which I recently upgraded to a Creek Evolution 2
It was really not bad with the Yamaha, but the Creek is a real improvement.
You immediatly notice that without any hesitation.

Now I think it is really a very simple and excellent setup for a small room (PMC + Creek)
I have been listening to much more expensive systems, some are obviously better, some sounded worse to me.
In the end I have no frustration with mine.

But I am somewhat perplex as far as the source is concerned.
In my tests, the TC-7520 is always connected to digital output of the Squeezebox
(no difference between optical and coaxial noticed)
I always connect the TC-7520 and the Squeezebox analog output to two different input of the amplifier so it is very easy to compare TC-7520 dac and Squeezebox dac.

At first I compared
- PMC + Yamaha + TC-7520
- PMC + Yamaha + Squeezebox internal dac
The difference was surprisingly small even after extensive use and running in of the TC-7520
The difference was there (TC-7520 better), but no so easy to pick up, and not on all material.

I could check that the Yamaha was obviously the weak link of my system.
After some listening sessions, I bought the Creek, and then expected to hear much bigger difference revealed between the TC-7520 and the Squeezebox.
The result was totally different from what I expected.
Any dac combined to
- PMC + Creek
is really better than any dac combined to
- PMC + Yamaha
not the slightest hesitation about that, very easy to pick up.

But when I compared
- PMC + Creek + Squeezebox dac
- PMC + Creek + TC-7520
They sounded almost the same, really hard to notice a difference, if there is any ...
It seems the Creek brought everything to a clearly higher level, but with Squeezebox internal dac to the same level as the TC-7520 ...

A few days ago, I went to an electronic shop and bought a pair of LM4562NA opamps and put them in the TC-7520
Now I can compare
- PMC + Creek + Squeezebox dac
- PMC + Creek + TC-7520 with LM4562NA
Now the TC-7520 with LM4562NA is better
(but not as much as I expected, and not always so easy to pick up)

When I went to choose my new amplifier, I brought the Yamaha, and the TC-7520 to the dealer.
I could not take the Squeezebox, too complicated to bring the PC needed for Squeezecenter, the router, and so on ...
The TC-7520 was not upgraded with the LM4562NA at that time.
I wanted to compare all amplifiers I wanted to try, including my Yamaha, on the same speakers (same model as mine) and same DAC, my TC-7520, in the same room (small one like mine)
The TC-7520 was connected to the digital output of a Prima Luna Prologue 8 CD player
Hence I had the opportunity to compare the Prima Luna analog output to the TC-7520
Well no surprise, the Prima Luna was better than stock TC-7520
As far as I can tell, with bigger margin than TC-7520 LM4562NA vs Squeezebox

I'll add that I only use the TC-7520 fixed output, I don't have headphones.
I quickly tried variable output of the TC-7520, I think fixed output was always better.

I'm not telling that any dac is not good.
To my ears, the PMC + Creek + Squeezebox is already an excellent setup, better that some very expensive systems which highly disapointed me.

But I'm a bit puzzled.
From what I read and expected, the dac hierarchy was supposed to be the following, with each step clearly audible

TC-7520 LM4562NA > stock TC-7520 > TC-7510 > Squeezebox internal dac

I never heard the TC-7510.
In the end on my PMC + Creek setup, I find that TC-7510 LM4562NA is better than Squeezebox internal dac, but not with such a night and day margin.
(Anyway I am happy with the TC-7520, I need a good usb dac, and it is one of them).

So what ?
Did I miss something ?
Are dac differences really extremely subtle compared to what you can expect (and actually hear) when you upgrade speakers or amplifiers ?
Is the Squeezebox dac finally an excellent dac, especially when combined to a good speaker+amplifier setup ?
Any comment or suggestion is welcome.

Nicolas

[Gazjam]

The SB3 Dac has a good Dac, not QUITE as good to my ears as my Cambridge Azur 640 cd player, but not far off to be honest - which surprised me.
So I'd equate it with a 3-400 CD Player.

However my Beresford Dac - even my older 7510 bettered it for musical involvement, soundstage width...pretty much all the Hifi jargon stuff...

The 7520 sounds a lot better than even that to my ears, especially with the modded Op Amps.

Still, just goes to show how this hobby is all subjective.

[nb2]

The SB3 Dac has a good Dac, not QUITE as good to my ears as my Cambridge Azur 640 cd player, but not far off to be honest - which surprised me.
So I'd equate it with a 3-400 CD Player.

However my Beresford Dac - even my older 7510 bettered it for musical involvement, soundstage width...pretty much all the Hifi jargon stuff...

The 7520 sounds a lot better than even that to my ears, especially with the modded Op Amps.

Still, just goes to show how this hobby is all subjective.

Well I'd go even higher than 400 CD palyer for the Squeezebox dac quality.
You can have differences, but that is more a question of personal taste, than real higher quality.

The more I listen to different things, the more I think you finally need to spend some good money in a dac, if you want a real step up with good margin from this Squeezebox thing.

I'm quite certain it is useless to change the dac, if your speaker+amp setup can be upgraded for the same kind of money.

[StanleyB]

The more I listen to different things, the more I think you finally need to spend some good money in a dac, if you want a real step up with good margin from this Squeezebox thing.

I'm quite certain it is useless to change the dac, if your speaker+amp setup can be upgraded for the same kind of money.

This is without doubt your own opinion, which differs wildly from the findings of even SB3 owners on the Slim Devices forum. Coming to think of it, I don't recall anyone anywhere on the internet ever having managed to put the SB3 ahead of the TC-7510, let alone the TC-7520.

Stan

[lovejoy]

So what ?
Did I miss something ?
Are dac differences really extremely subtle compared to what you can expect (and actually hear) when you upgrade speakers or amplifiers ?
Is the Squeezebox dac finally an excellent dac, especially when combined to a good speaker+amplifier setup ?
Any comment or suggestion is welcome.

Nicolas

Hi Nicolas,
I think what you need is a new point of reference other than the SB3 as a 'transport'. Your post is very interesting and has raised a couple of suspicions for me as I've been mulling over the concept of a Squeezebox myself.

I've tried my 7520 on the end of quite a few pieces of kit now - Macbook Pro, PC running Foobar on XP, PC running iTunes on Vista, PC running Ubuntu, Sony Playstation 3, a cheap DVD recorder, the list keeps on growing. Everything I have tried sounds markedly different. Some have made the 7520 sound pretty mediocre at best (the PS3 springs to mind) and others are seriously good and can keep you listening for hours (PC with Foobar, and more recently PC running Ubuntu - my current project).

It would be really interesting if you could compare the SB3 into your DAC with your computer into your DAC, whether that be via an optical, coax or USB connection. If you need any help with the optimum setup of a computer then I'd be more than happy to help.

[nb2]

Hi Nicolas,
I think what you need is a new point of reference other than the SB3 as a 'transport'. Your post is very interesting and has raised a couple of suspicions for me as I've been mulling over the concept of a Squeezebox myself.

I've tried my 7520 on the end of quite a few pieces of kit now - Macbook Pro, PC running Foobar on XP, PC running iTunes on Vista, PC running Ubuntu, Sony Playstation 3, a cheap DVD recorder, the list keeps on growing. Everything I have tried sounds markedly different. Some have made the 7520 sound pretty mediocre at best (the PS3 springs to mind) and others are seriously good and can keep you listening for hours (PC with Foobar, and more recently PC running Ubuntu - my current project).

It would be really interesting if you could compare the SB3 into your DAC with your computer into your DAC, whether that be via an optical, coax or USB connection. If you need any help with the optimum setup of a computer then I'd be more than happy to help.

Hi,

I think there is misunderstanding here if some people think that I meant that the TC-7520 does not sound very good.
I never found the squeezebox better than stock TC-7520, but I did find it surprisingly close, and sometimes as good in some situations (interestingly not the ones I expected ...)
The TC-7520 does sound very good especially with LM4562NA opamps
(I think you really have to do that to take advantage of it, it would be good to have the upgrade as an option when your order it, since it is really a cheap upgrade, and some people could be frightened to unplug original opamps)

In my opinion that is the Squeezebox dac which sound also amazingly good too ...

I had the opportunity to listen to really high end systems.
I am amazed by the result you can get with a simple Squeezebox coupled to a good speaker+amplifier setup.

My main conclusion so far, is that the very first thing you have to do, the one that makes 95% of the result, is to find the right speaker+amplifier setup.
If you don't do that, you'll get some (real) improvement with a dac, but far from what you will achieve if your speakers are the best you can afford for your room, and your amplifier good enough to really drive correctly your speakers.

One of the main reason for my TC-7520 purchase was to connect it to my PC with USB.
Everyday I can compare
PC + TC-7520 via usb
Squeezebox + TC-7520
Both are excellent, may be a little better for the second one.

I have no doubt that you can get a real improvement with the TC-7520
But from my experience, I would say
1/ find the best speaker for your room
2/ find a good amplifier that drive correctly your speakers
That's more that 95% of the final result
3/ find the best dac for your ears to achieve a few % left.

[nb2]

I've tried my 7520 on the end of quite a few pieces of kit now - Macbook Pro, PC running Foobar on XP, PC running iTunes on Vista, PC running Ubuntu, Sony Playstation 3, a cheap DVD recorder, the list keeps on growing. Everything I have tried sounds markedly different. Some have made the 7520 sound pretty mediocre at best (the PS3 springs to mind) and others are seriously good and can keep you listening for hours (PC with Foobar, and more recently PC running Ubuntu - my current project).

You are talking about transports for the TC-7520
Did you make those comparison on the same amp+speaker setup, with the same material ?

If not, I'm not sure differences your hear come from the couple transport+TC-7520

In my experience, even when you compare two dacs on the same setup, the material you listen to is important.
I mainly have flac ripped with EAC files, and internet radios.
Some flac are very revealing, others absolutely not.
On the same radio, within in a couple of minutes, they can play some flat recordings, and then some amazingly good quality material

[lovejoy]

One of the main reason for my TC-7520 purchase was to connect it to my PC with USB.
Everyday I can compare
PC + TC-7520 via usb
Squeezebox + TC-7520
Both are excellent, may be a little better for the second one.

I'd love to know more about this comparison. How would you describe the differences and what are you using to get the audio from your PC into the 7520 - operating system, audio drivers, playback software etc.

[Covenant]

On the same radio, within in a couple of minutes, they can play some flat recordings, and then some amazingly good quality material[/QUOTE]

Also different radio stations broadcasting at the same bitrate sound different. Maybe to do with the quality of equipment they use.
I find the 7520 great with average quality radio. Evidently there is a circuit within it which improves the quality of MP3 (one of Stans many closely guarded secrets)

[nb2]

I'd love to know more about this comparison. How would you describe the differences and what are you using to get the audio from your PC into the 7520 - operating system, audio drivers, playback software etc.

I gave my general impression.

Normally I don't use those solutions for the same things

PC +TC-7520 (usb) for deezer, spotify, or movies
Squeezebox + TC-7520 for my flac library and internet radios.

I'm going to make some test on the same material (I think flac file is the best) and i'll let you know.