Ashley & JC's assorted musings

[jcbrum]

I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment.

Having looked back through the thread I assume this is what you are referring to.

Well for a start it's divided into two parts, hifi - meaning electronics, cdp's etc, and speakers.

Taking hifi first, the rate of development in digital electronics has been phenomenal, and has required a R&D budget only available to the big players. For an example a dac like this would have cost £1000 two or more years ago, but has recently been introduced at £60, and it does 24bit/192kHz at absolutely superb quality, not just 16/44 CD quality.

http://www.yamaha-europe.com/yamaha_...o44/index.html

It is part of my job to evaluate and compare units such as these when they become available.
Now onto speakers, and you asked me to specifically consider your SP100's. there is no doubt that they are fine loudspeakers. They are very large 3 way design costing £6k-£8k new today, and were originally designed about 30 years ago.

It isn't really fair to directly compare a large 3 way with a small 2 way like the adm9, which is what I think you want me to do but I will comment as follows (next post)

[Marco]

Taking hifi first, the rate of development in digital electronics has been phenomenal, and has required a R&D budget only available to the big players. For an example a dac like this would have cost £1000 two or more years ago, but has recently been introduced at £60, and it does 24bit/192kHz at absolutely superb quality, not just 16/44 CD quality. It is part of my job to evaluate and compare units such as these when they become available.

In real terms that means absolutely nothing. It most certainly does not prove as "fact" that modern equipment is automatically better. Tell me which actual CD players you've compared from both eras and describe why the most recently produced ones are in your opinion sonically superior. I don't care about specifications - it's sound quality that ultimately matters. Some (sensible and discerning) people like to *listen* to stuff before they buy it, you know. Specifications or measurements alone do not tell the whole story.

Now onto speakers, and you asked me to specifically consider your SP100's. there is no doubt that they are fine loudspeakers. They are very large 3 way design costing £6k-£8k new today, and were originally designed about 30 years ago.

It isn't really fair to directly compare a large 3 way with a small 2 way like the adm9, which is what I think you want me to do but I will comment as follows (next post)

Why is it not fair? You're desperately trying to backtrack and stop being made to look like a fool. Unfortunately for you, it's not working!

You made a ludicrous statement saying: "I know for a fact that speakers and hifi designed more than a couple of years ago is inferior sonically to recent equipment."

There was no size or price of speaker stipulated. The "hi-fi" part of your statement is also as ludicrous. And who mentioned ADM9s? I certainly didn't!

So, JC, either ALL speakers made now of similar specifications are better than ALL speakers made more than a couple of years ago of similar specifications, or they're not.

Which is it?

Marco.

[jcbrum]

Loudspeakers are comprised of a crossover circuit containing high power inductors, capacitors, and resistors. It is not uncommonfor such a crossover to absorb 50% of the power of the amplifier driving it and interferes severely with the damping factor, or the "grip" that the amplifier has upon the loudspeaker.

The first improvement that could be made would be to eliminate the crossover and go for direct drive of the units by separate amplifiers, this could mean six amplifiers in a stereo 3 way pair.

The second improvement that could be made is by using newer designs of drive units which have a wider flatter frequency range than previous designs and lower distortion figures as well.

Improvements can be made in cabinet design, mostly in the cosmetic arena, (good for sales), but also the ability to use smaller cabs with better drivers to achieve similar sound.

So if we are to consider a modern version of your sp100's we would have something about the same size but now needing six powerful accurate low distortion amplifiers.

Also to replace the passive crossover we would need either an active analogue crossover or a digital one. modern designs of these, are again improvements on older designs due to the pace of development, based on R&D budget from the component suppliers.

We already have a very expensive unit costing at least twice the original design and whilst its better its also too expensive c. £16k-20k and so the numbers sold would make it a marginal commercial product.

What AVI have made with the adm9 is a two way speaker based on the above concepts and also including a dac and a two way remote control pre-amp with full analogue inputs at line level as well as s/pdif digital input for a cost of £1k.

That is a hell of an achievement and they are easily capable of out performing similar conventional two way designs of a similar size and cost.

If you want to directly compare your sp100's with adm9's then bring 'em with you.

Hope this helps but YMMV

[Marco]

More meaningless froth. Please answer the questions I asked you in my last post.

You are really trying my patience, JC, and the outcome for you isn't looking good!

Marco.

[jcbrum]

I haven't yet read you're last post Marco, I have been to busy typing my own posts which I put up in two parts.

I also have a long drive to make tomorrow with an early start, and since it is now 5 minutes before 2am I'm going to bed now.

I hope we can continue this debate tomorrow.

Regards JC.

[Steve Toy]

I think the ultimate scrutiny is the market place generally not just you Steve Toy.
You do seem remarkably biased steve, after all the products have been exhibited at bristol two years running and have gained wide sales approval and many testimonials, particularly from the more professional users,
It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them, particularly on this forum.
From what I see and read on the internet generally they are very well thought of by everyone who has used them. Its only people who dont own them that complain about them.

The market place is not the ultimate scrutiny for the discerning. Unfortunately the masses tend to buy what they are told to. This forum is being overrun with messages to go buy ADM9s.

How can I be biased? The prospect of selling my hi-fi for possibly well over £6000 (two items, a CD player and an amplifier of mine recently sold for £3000 between them), buying ADM9s and a suitable laptop for around £1500 all in, leaving me with over £4500 in the bank would be a very tempting proposition indeed if only this setup actually delivered the goods.

Unfortunately it doesn't. I only wish it did.

As a troll your hours on here are numbered. Note I said 'hours' not 'days.' If you wish to remain you'll have to re-register under, shall we say, a less provocative username and assume a more transparent persona like everyone else.

[Marco]

I haven't yet read you're last post Marco, I have been to busy typing my own posts which I put up in two parts.

I also have a long drive to make tomorrow with an early start, and since it is now 5 minutes before 2am I'm going to bed now.

I hope we can continue this debate tomorrow.

Oh don't worry, we will - and we'll be getting to the bottom of your ridiculous statement one way or the other, and also getting Ashley to answer the questions he was asked earlier, too. You can count on it, my friend!

Until tomorrow...

Marco.

[Filterlab]

...What AVI have made with the adm9 is a two way speaker based on the above concepts and also including a dac and a two way remote control pre-amp with full analogue inputs at line level as well as s/pdif digital input for a cost of £1k...

So tell me how they can possibly be better than a pair of speakers costing eight times more, or two times more, because at the moment I see a lot of nonsense being typed. If you think these speakers are better than my Revels you're more than welcome to try them back to back, but I'll tell you something, the Revels will completely and utterly destroy the ADMs in every way.

JC, you're a nice chap, but you must stop posting nonsensical sweeping statements that can't possibly hold merit. Just because hi-fi is new doesn't mean it's better. To draw a car analogy, a new Mondeo is never going to be as good as a three year old Bentley.

[Marco]

Indeed, Rob. Your Revels are another excellent example.

I'd just like to pick up on our friend "Psycho's" comment, as he's missed the point completely, probably deliberately:

It just seems to be a few valve enthusiasts and struggling dealers who are so heavily prejudiced against them...

That's total bullshit. I think I can state categorically on behalf of anyone on this forum that before Ashley and JC arrived on the scene and started shoving ADM9s down people's throats no-one was "heavily prejudiced" against them. Personally, I hadn't even heard of them up until that point!

It's not a matter of being "heavily prejudiced" against the ADM9s, it's simply that they've been touted by Ashley and JC completely out of all sensible context!

I have no doubt that the ADM9s are professionally built, well-engineered products which perform to a high standard. I'm sure they might even outperform *some* more expensive designs. AVI have an long and established reputation for producing top quality equipment, indeed I'm a fan of pretty much all their older designs from CDPs to amps and speakers. I'm sure the Trios and their big monoblock amplifiers, for example, sound stunning.

BUT... And yes, there's a big BUT!!

It's when ADM9s are taken out of all sensible context and promoted ridiculously as 'the definitive loudspeaker' which so irks people here (and elsewhere), basically because it's utter nonsense. I don't think anyone is denying that ADM9s are a neat, cleverly designed, good sounding solution which offer superb value for money for people who don't want the clutter of separates, because that's what they are - nothing more.

If Ashley and JC had promoted them as such in the first place then no-one would have been "heavily prejudiced" against them. They would probably even had a few sales from people on forums, but it's all backfired spectacularly. Undoubtedly people are heavily prejudiced against them now, not because of what they do or what they represent, but because of the copious quantities of verbal diarrhoea spouted by their manufacturer and his sponsored mouthpiece. I think there's a real resentment now on forums towards AVI and its products for that reason. Marketing suicide at its very best.

Nice work, boys. Well done!

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Indeed, Rob. Your Revels are another excellent example.

I'd just like to pick up on our friend "Psycho's" comment, as he's missed the point completely, probably deliberately:



That's total bullshit. I think I can state categorically on behalf of anyone on this forum that before Ashley and JC arrived on the scene and started shoving ADM9s down people's throats no-one was "heavily prejudiced" against them. Personally, I hadn't even heard of them up until that point!

It's not a matter of being "heavily prejudiced" against the ADM9s, it's simply that they've been touted by Ashley and JC completely out of all sensible context!

I have no doubt that the ADM9s are professionally built, well-engineered products which perform to a high standard. I'm sure they might even outperform *some* more expensive designs. AVI have an long and established reputation for producing top quality equipment, indeed I'm a fan of pretty much all their older designs from CDPs to amps and speakers. I'm sure the Trios and their big monoblock amplifiers, for example, sound stunning.

BUT... And yes, there's a big BUT!!

It's when ADM9s are taken out of all sensible context and promoted ridiculously as 'the definitive loudspeaker' which so irks people here (and elsewhere), basically because it's utter nonsense. I don't think anyone is denying that ADM9s are a neat, cleverly designed, good sounding solution which offer superb value for money for people who don't want the clutter of separates, because that's what they are - nothing more.

If Ashley and JC had promoted them as such in the first place then no-one would have been "heavily prejudiced" against them. Undoubtedly people are heavily prejudiced against them now, not because of what they do or what they represent, but because of the copious quantities of verbal diarrhoea spouted by their manufacturer and his sponsored mouthpiece.

Job done, boys. Well done!

Marco.

i second that