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Thread: Digital audio vs vinyl

  1. #141
    Join Date: Jan 2009

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    Concerning the perception of frequencies > 20kHz, I believe that although one cannot hear such frequencies directly, their presence could have an influence on sounds lower in frequency.

    Although not directly related, owing to my age, I cannot directly hear frequencies above 10kHz, yet can 'hear' the difference to a violin playing whereby the top end is rolled off. To experience this effect, JBL produced a record called 'Sessions' as a device to demonstrate and promote their speakers.



    On it there is a track (track 3 on side 2) of a violin playing, first full-range, then with high frequencies above 15kHz filtered out. The filtering then occurs at 12kHz, and finally at 10kHz. As I say, I can't hear above 10kHz, but I can hear quite distinctly when the response is rolled off at 15kHz.
    Last edited by Barry; 23-05-2017 at 18:35. Reason: spelling
    Barry

  2. #142
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Light Dependant Resistor View Post
    See Post 124 and this article http://wilson-benesch.com/reviews/Li...C_Sep-1998.pdf
    the work done by David Blackmer into the ability of human hearing to perceive sounds above 20khz

    Yes mixing desks are capable of limiting frequency, and must be improved. On the plus side fets and mosfets
    are capable out to 100's of Mhz if not Ghz

    It open's many possibilities when we think above 20khz for both recording and playback.
    It s just an article though, in which he speculates and does not have any references to anything more concrete. Not saying that there is no possibility in the idea but at the moment the academic studies suggest otherwise.

    People cannot reliably tell whether the super high HF content is present or not. Even if there is a genuine effect is it not so tiny as to not be worth bothering with? When we could be looking at far more effective ways of improving replay quality?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #143
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Concerning the perception of frequencies > 20kHz, I believe that although one cannot hear such frequencies directly, their presence could have an influence on sounds lower in frequency.

    Although not directly related, owing to my age, I cannot directly hear frequencies above 10kHz, yet can 'hear' the difference to a violin playing whereby the top end is rolled off. To experience this effect, JBL produced a record called 'Sessions' as a device to demonstrate and promote their speakers.



    On it there is a track (track 3 on side 2) of a violin playing, first full-range, then with high frequencies above 15kHz filtered out. The filtering then occurs at 12kHz, and finally at 10kHz. As I say, I can't hear above 10kHz, but I can hear quite distinctly when the response is rolled of at 15kHz.
    yes i would agree some perception is there. I put a super tweeter in at a freq I couldnt hear but could tell the difference. I felt it altered my perception of the lower bass freq.
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Not saying that there is no possibility in the idea but at the moment the academic studies suggest otherwise.
    And of course they automatically know best

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by struth View Post
    yes i would agree some perception is there. I put a super tweeter in at a freq I couldnt hear but could tell the difference. I felt it altered my perception of the lower bass freq.
    Indeed, and Barry makes a good point, which I suspect has relevance to the whole high-res thing. Some folk like to simplify audio way too much, and compartmentalise it into little boxes of 'black and white facts', when in actuality there is much more going on that can't yet be so 'neatly filed'...

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #146
    Join Date: Oct 2012

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And of course they automatically know best

    Marco.
    Of course!
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    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
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  7. #147
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And of course they automatically know best

    Marco.
    Well no, I'm not saying that. But when you hear no difference and then you find out that according to what we know to date you shouldn't be able to hear any difference then it does make you stop and think.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    That's not the same thing though is it? Isn't it the case that most amplifiers are not bandwidth-limited is not because we can actually hear anything at that frequency but for other reasons unrelated to audible frequency reaponse?
    I'm not sure what you are getting at here.... Some amps struggle to manage even 20KHz due to their own limitations and may be a dB or so down at this point, others may manage 2MHz + and may be allowed to get on with doing this, others still may manage 2MHz + but the designer may choose to add an artificial roll off.. often -3dB @ 50KHz or so.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  9. #149
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
    I'm not sure what you are getting at here.... Some amps struggle to manage even 20KHz due to their own limitations and may be a dB or so down at this point, others may manage 2MHz + and may be allowed to get on with doing this, others still may manage 2MHz + but the designer may choose to add an artificial roll off.. often -3dB @ 50KHz or so.
    I jut recall reading somewhere a discussion on whether extended or limited bandwidth (in a power amp) was the best approach for SQ and it was nothing to do with there being any musical content at those frequencies that needed transmitting.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #150
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Well no, I'm not saying that. But when you hear no difference and then you find out that according to what we know to date you shouldn't be able to hear any difference then it does make you stop and think.
    Indeed... I stop and think, after which I conclude that there are lots of things we can definitely hear, but which as of yet aren't covered by academic studies

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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