Digital audio vs vinyl

[Firebottle]

Hi Alan,



That's interesting, as I've always been on the lookout for a modern DAC that could compete with or outperform the Sony, not that I'd ever sell the latter as it has a unique sound of its own, but I'd value owning a modern high-end DAC in my system, simply to get a different 'take' on the music, as well as using it in conjunction with the RPi.

In that respect, I'd love to hear the Chord in question, but as ever in audio, I suspect that both the Sony and it would have their strengths and weaknesses, with neither outperforming the other overall in every area, as that rarely happens with two very capable pieces of kit

The thing for me with the Sony, as indeed Macca loves about his Technics, is the sheer weight and authority it has in the bass, which 'underpins' music with such palpable gravitas, thus making anything that benefits from a 'chunky' bass line, sound so lifelike and real.

So far, as there's always a trade off with any kit, I've never heard that effect, to the same degree, from any modern DAC, as they tend to major in 'rez', a little at the expense of 'fullness'. Note, however, I don't mean bass bloat, but rather the weight and authority I referred to earlier.

That really adds to the fun factor of the listening experience, and much of that effect, I now know from experience, is down to the sonic signature of the TDA 1541 chips, employed in the Sony DAC. It's a sound that, although other vintage players have in abundance, the way it manifests itself on the music, for me is unique to those DAC chips, when properly implemented, and indeed to multi-bit DACs in general.

Marco.

I really really wish you could hear it. It is the DAVE dac system that Jimbo has heard (and introduced me to) and so eloquently described in previous posts.
It doesn't use a proprietary dac chip, the dac is a programmed gate array (don't worry about the technicalities) that is a sea change in performance.

The bass performance of the system on demo could have been classed as a weapon , it was almost beyond description in power and clarity, or weight and authority in your words. I was totally gobsmacked .........

Having heard what can be achieved with the Chord technologies makes me want some of the performance. The DAVE is stupidly priced, from an affordability aspect, but Chord have just updated their HUGO dac/headphone amplifier which I am seriously tempted to audition.

One small problem, I don't have a CD transport or deck with digital outputs. If/when I get one I'll happily bring it along to yours for a sesh

[Marco]

barring the finer details which you often need high quality gear and ears to pick up, I find the mastering is all important to how each sounds. Why else would some recordings sound world class and others sound the pits

Yes, mastering is all-important, and indeed the quality of such is significantly responsible for the results of what we hear through our systems with recorded music.

However, out with of that, there are undeniable, fundamental, sonic and musical presentational differences between vinyl and digital replay, although the respective playing field can be levelled to such a degree, by the judicious selection of associated equipment, that it matters not which one is being listened to.

Marco.

[Marco]

I really really wish you could hear it. It is the DAVE dac system that Jimbo has heard (and introduced me to) and so eloquently described in previous posts.
It doesn't use a proprietary dac chip, the dac is a programmed gate array (don't worry about the technicalities) that is a sea change in performance.

The bass performance of the system on demo could have been classed as a weapon , it was almost beyond description in power and clarity, or weight and authority in your words. I was totally gobsmacked .........

Having heard what can be achieved with the Chord technologies makes me want some of the performance. The DAVE is stupidly priced, from an affordability aspect, but Chord have just updated their HUGO dac/headphone amplifier which I am seriously tempted to audition.

One small problem, I don't have a CD transport or deck with digital outputs. If/when I get one I'll happily bring it along to yours for a sesh

Sounds great, mate. I'm always up for stuff like that, as hearing new gear is the only way you learn! So exactly how much is the Dave? If it's not too ridiculous, and when I heard it in the context of my own system and sufficiently liked it, I'd just go out and buy one - end of

Marco.

[struth]

Dear dave

[struth]

£8k

[brian2957]

I really really wish you could hear it. It is the DAVE dac system that Jimbo has heard (and introduced me to) and so eloquently described in previous posts.
It doesn't use a proprietary dac chip, the dac is a programmed gate array (don't worry about the technicalities) that is a sea change in performance.

The bass performance of the system on demo could have been classed as a weapon , it was almost beyond description in power and clarity, or weight and authority in your words. I was totally gobsmacked .........

Having heard what can be achieved with the Chord technologies makes me want some of the performance. The DAVE is stupidly priced, from an affordability aspect, but Chord have just updated their HUGO dac/headphone amplifier which I am seriously tempted to audition.

One small problem, I don't have a CD transport or deck with digital outputs. If/when I get one I'll happily bring it along to yours for a sesh

Yup , James kindly took me over to hear the system you're describing Alan and I agree with everything you've said I this post

[Macca]

Sorry mate, but in my experience that simply isn't true.

When I was having the Sony(s) modified, Mark (from Audiocom) allowed me to listen to the effect at almost every step of the way [good job I had some suitable boxes for shipping them back and forth to him, lol], certainly after anything major had been carried out, such as re-clocking.

One thing he told me was that jitter was a major reason why digital replay can often sound 'hard' and unnatural, compared with analogue, and when I analysed the effect for myself (before and after mods), it was obvious what he was saying was right.

I'll see if I can get him to come on and explain things from a technical point of view, in terms of the work he did on the Sonys to address jitter, as Mark really knows his stuff



Marco.

yes see if you can get him to explain what mods he made, would be interesting.

I suspect what is happening here is that various things are being modded but the reason for improvement is being ascribed to jitter when it is actually something else.

For those interested this thread http://audiosciencereview.com/forum/...n-jitter.1621/ is a reasonably understandable discussion of jitter in digital systems.

[Haselsh1]

Yes, but that could simply be down to the sonic limitations of your CD player, in comparison with those of your turntable, rather than said effect automatically being attributed to CD replay itself.

Marco.

Indeed it could easily be down to the characteristics of CD replay equipment versus vinyl replay equipment. Each and every one of us suffer from this as there are clear differences with replay equipment otherwise why would we bother..?
Outside of this it comes down to characteristics that can only be measured by laboratory equipment and this I have no interest in as it has no significant importance on the enjoyment I get from my sound system. Every piece of equipment we own as individuals has its own limitations and these connect to each other to produce our systems characteristics. No system is without this synergy, this in itself making some systems sound wonderful and others sound ordinary. However, this in itself is largely governed by what we actually hear and how it influences our mood on a subconscious level. Thankfully we are all very different to each other in what stirs our emotions so the sonic limitations of my system are so different to the sonic limitations of your system but they clearly exist in all cases and it could be one of those limitations that ultimately makes us feel what we feel when we play music.

[Marco]

yes see if you can get him to explain what mods he made, would be interesting.

I suspect what is happening here is that various things are being modded but the reason for improvement is being ascribed to jitter when it is actually something else.

Yes indeed, or that you (and whoever else is stating the same about jitter) perhaps is wrong...

My view is that it's most likely one of those technical areas where various experts simply disagree, and that no-one is unquestionably right. At the end of the day, however, all that matters is what our ears tell us, in respect of how any perceived effect translates itself to and/or affects our enjoyment of recorded music.

Just because the so-called 'facts' appear to contradict my views on jitter, doesn't automatically mean that they're right. In any case, I've emailed Mark, and asked him to contribute to the discussion, so hopefully he'll do that

Marco.

[Marco]

£8k

Not cheap, but *if* it was as good as Alan claims, I'd consider it. However, for those who know the Dave DAC, could you please confirm a) if it uses up-sampling technology, and b) if it features the use of a proper (linear) PSU, as opposed to SMPS?

Both factors would be crucial in terms of the likelihood of me buying one.

Marco.