+ Reply to Thread
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 80

Thread: ZXY Bloom R50 MC Review

  1. #61
    Join Date: Jan 2016

    Location: Shenfield

    Posts: 573
    I'm Slav.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffc View Post
    There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like. This can make a surprising difference, audibly, between good and poor designs. It is easily audibly discernible. It's no surprise since such effects usually result in an SUT's performance deviating from their design ideal characteristics. I worked on the development of an SUT a few years back, and for such a simple concept, it was surprisingly difficult to have one made which performed as expected. In my case, the core material was saturating rather unexpectedly so had to be redesigned and re-specified. Andrew is the real expert here though so you may be better addressing the same question to Andrew for a more comprehensive answer.

    There are worlds of difference between various MM RIAA/gain amplifier designs as I'm sure you're aware being someone with the experience and knowledge to build them, so forgive me, but it seems a rather odd thing to suggest by inference that all SUTs or phono stages should sound the same? Forgive me if that is not what you meant, but it is how it comes across. Even things like the implementation of the power supplies matters, a lot. The proof of the pudding is in things like measured distortion and S/N performance. Designs that measure well in this respect usually sound the best to my ears too.
    My question was what electrical parameters (measurable at home conditions) would make difference between good/bad SUT .
    I never said SUTs sound the same , what I have said is I couldn't tell any difference between Output Transformers as long as they measured fairly close (winding impedance, turns ratio ,freq. response, same UL taps) .
    I never tried to built RIAA stage but IMO if PSU is designed well and RIAA curve replicated closely , S/N ratio and distortion at the same level there shouldn't be much difference but they do sound different is it mainly deviation from RIAA ?
    When I say measured in home conditions I meant using scope, signal gen. etc... , fairly cheap and obtainable tools.
    Last edited by mac72; 23-12-2016 at 15:57.

  2. #62
    Join Date: Oct 2012

    Location: NE England

    Posts: 4,173
    I'm Jez.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffc View Post
    There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like. This can make a surprising difference, audibly, between good and poor designs. It is easily audibly discernible. It's no surprise since such effects usually result in an SUT's performance deviating from their design ideal characteristics. I worked on the development of an SUT a few years back, and for such a simple concept, it was surprisingly difficult to have one made which performed as expected. In my case, the core material was saturating rather unexpectedly so had to be redesigned and re-specified. Andrew is the real expert here though so you may be better addressing the same question to Andrew for a more comprehensive answer.

    There are worlds of difference between various MM RIAA/gain amplifier designs as I'm sure you're aware being someone with the experience and knowledge to build them, so forgive me, but it seems a rather odd thing to suggest by inference that all SUTs or phono stages should sound the same? Forgive me if that is not what you meant, but it is how it comes across. Even things like the implementation of the power supplies matters, a lot. The proof of the pudding is in things like measured distortion and S/N performance. Designs that measure well in this respect usually sound the best to my ears too.
    I agree completely.

    Designing a really good phono stage is no easy task, especially one for MC carts.... When you're dealing with signals of < 0.0005 Volts then everything matters! Off the shelf voltage regulators for example cannot be used to directly power an MC stage as they are too noisy.. They may have only 10 millionths of a Volt of noise (hiss) but that's far too much!
    Both head amps and SUT's also need very careful design if matters which would be irrelevant in a line stage are not to completely ruin performance at so much lower a signal level.
    Arkless Electronics-Engineered to be better. Tel. 01670 530674 (after 1pm)

    Modded Thorens TD150, Audio Technica AT-1005 MkII, Technics EPC-300MC, Arkless Hybrid MC phono stage, Arkless passive pre, Arkless 50WPC Class A SS power amp, (or) Arkless modded Leak Stereo 20, Modded Kef Reference 105/3's
    ReVox PR99, Studer B62, Ferrograph Series 7, Tandberg TCD440, Hitachi FT-5500MkI, also FT-5500MkII
    Digital: Yamaha CDR-HD1500 (Digital Swiss army knife-CD recorder, player, hard drive, DAC and ADC in one), PC files via 24/96 sound card and SPDIF, modded Philips CD850, modded Philips CD104, modded DPA Little Bit DAC. Sennheiser HD580 cans with Arkless Headphone amp.
    Cables- free interconnects that come with CD players, mains leads from B&Q, dead kettles etc, extension leads from Tesco

  3. #63
    RothwellAudio Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    The honest answer is ..... I have no idea. I have 100ohm and 220ohm on my amp and two more on my SUT which are labelled as 30ohm and 10ohm but I don't think that relates to loading.
    Is that a selectable 100 ohm/220 ohm option on the same phonostage, or 100 ohms on one phonostage and 220 ohms on another? If it's two different phonostages I don't think it's logical to attribute any difference in sound to the different load impedances when there are so many other variables.
    Yes, the "30 ohm" and "10 ohm" labels on the step-up transformers are probably misleading and actually mean something like "suitable for a 30 ohm cartridge" and "suitable for a 10 ohm cartridge" rather than being the actual load impedances presented to the cartridge. Again, with so many variables it's difficult to isolate the effects of the load impedance from everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reffc View Post
    There's a world of difference between core materials used between some SUTs, the interleave windings for bandwidth, parasitic capacitance effects and the like....
    Andrew is the real expert here...
    I'm loath to call myself an expert in anything but I agree there are a bewildering number of parameters involved in audio transformers and the core material is one of the most important. Many of the design parameters conflict with each other and improving one will degrade another. For example, some core materials will give you a very high inductance for a given number of turns on the primary, but they will saturate more easily than other materials which don't give you such a high inductance. A high primary inductance is a "good thing" and piling on the turns will give you more, but that will also increase the stray capacitance, which is a "bad thing". Yes, transformers may appear to be trivially simple but and actually fiendishly complex.

    Quote Originally Posted by mac72 View Post
    My question was what electrical parameters (measurable at home conditions) would make difference between good/bad SUT ...
    When I say measured in home conditions I meant using scope, signal gen. etc... , fairly cheap and obtainable tools.
    Basically, the LF response is determined by the primary inductance. The HF response is determined by the core material, leakage inductance and stray capacitance.
    If you want to test step-up transformers, drive them from a specific source impedance. 10 ohms would be a good figure to represent a wide range of modern cartridges, or you could be more specific if you have a specific cartridge in mind.
    Also, load the secondary with the load impedance it is likely to see in actual use, ie 47k in parallel with about 200pF - 300pF.
    Simple frequency response sweeps with that set-up can tell you quite a lot.

  4. #64
    Bigman80 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Is that a selectable 100 ohm/220 ohm option on the same phonostage, or 100 ohms on one phonostage and 220 ohms on another? If it's two different phonostages I don't think it's logical to attribute any difference in sound to the different load impedances when there are so many other variables.
    Yes, the "30 ohm" and "10 ohm" labels on the step-up transformers are probably misleading and actually mean something like "suitable for a 30 ohm cartridge" and "suitable for a 10 ohm cartridge" rather than being the actual load impedances presented to the cartridge. Again, with so many variables it's difficult to isolate the effects of the load impedance from everything else.


    I'm loath to call myself an expert in anything but I agree there are a bewildering number of parameters involved in audio transformers and the core material is one of the most important. Many of the design parameters conflict with each other and improving one will degrade another. For example, some core materials will give you a very high inductance for a given number of turns on the primary, but they will saturate more easily than other materials which don't give you such a high inductance. A high primary inductance is a "good thing" and piling on the turns will give you more, but that will also increase the stray capacitance, which is a "bad thing". Yes, transformers may appear to be trivially simple but and actually fiendishly complex.


    Basically, the LF response is determined by the primary inductance. The HF response is determined by the core material, leakage inductance and stray capacitance.
    If you want to test step-up transformers, drive them from a specific source impedance. 10 ohms would be a good figure to represent a wide range of modern cartridges, or you could be more specific if you have a specific cartridge in mind.
    Also, load the secondary with the load impedance it is likely to see in actual use, ie 47k in parallel with about 200pF - 300pF.
    Simple frequency response sweeps with that set-up can tell you quite a lot.
    Yes it's switchable on the one component so direct comparison is easy. The 30/10ohm is on the SUT. It's not night and day but to me there is a definite difference. I have pretty good hearing too.

  5. #65
    RothwellAudio Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    I have pretty good hearing too.
    I wasn't doubting the fact that you hear a difference, just trying to determine the explanation. In the case of the SUT the different impedance is almost certainly due to a different turns ratio, so once again a change in one parameter is accompanied by another change in another parameter. Isolating the effects of the load impedance often isn't easy, though it would seem more straightforward in the case of the 100/220 ohm options you mention.

  6. #66
    Bigman80 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I wasn't doubting the fact that you hear a difference, just trying to determine the explanation. In the case of the SUT the different impedance is almost certainly due to a different turns ratio, so once again a change in one parameter is accompanied by another change in another parameter. Isolating the effects of the load impedance often isn't easy, though it would seem more straightforward in the case of the 100/220 ohm options you mention.
    Just to confuse matters, I used the SUT for an hour and noticed a lot more detail coming through than without it. Even at the 30 setting which I guess is the standard 100ohm (no idea) ? The bass notes were tonally superior but at a price of some slam. The treble sounded sweeter though and the kids sat in the mix with a better balance. I have in all honesty confused myself with which input/load/combo I like best. I think I'm going to give it a run with the SUT for a few days and see how I feel when I take it out. This MC lark is a nightmare lol.

    I also need to do some learning so that's in my radar.

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

  7. #67
    Bigman80 Guest

    Default

    I'm now sure it sounds best at 220ohms. I keep going g back to it so it must be right for me. Maybe different speakers etc would change things but to me it sounds great.

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

  8. #68
    RothwellAudio Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    ... I used the SUT for an hour and noticed a lot more detail coming through than without it... The bass notes were tonally superior but at a price of some slam. The treble sounded sweeter though and the kids sat in the mix with a better balance.
    I think, though I'm remain open-minded, that the bass slam is a function of the primary inductance of the SUT, ie its LF response. That's where expensive core materials come in into their own - more primary inductance. It's possibly also the reason why some folks prefer solid state headamps - it's easy to get a very good low frequency response.

  9. #69
    Bigman80 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I think, though I'm remain open-minded, that the bass slam is a function of the primary inductance of the SUT, ie its LF response. That's where expensive core materials come in into their own - more primary inductance. It's possibly also the reason why some folks prefer solid state headamps - it's easy to get a very good low frequency response.
    I don't know a lot about MCs or headamps SUTs etc but to my ears I think it sounds better through the the 220ohm input. It has more attack and channel separation is amazing. It sound more controlled through the SUT so I suppose it depends what I'm listening to.

    Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

  10. #70
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigman80 View Post
    I'm now sure it sounds best at 220ohms. I keep going g back to it so it must be right for me. Maybe different speakers etc would change things but to me it sounds great.
    So you're still having fun then Oliver?

    The Missions are quite revealing of cartridge character and show up inadequacies rather well. The Bloom should sound pretty nice with them.

    Merry Christmas!
    It is impossible for anything digital to sound analogue, because it isn't analogue!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 7 of 8 FirstFirst ... 5678 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •