Gromit's music centre...

[Barry]

As you will no doubt be aware, probably the best hi fi possible would be to do away with the transformers and directly drive electrostatic speakers from amplifiers capable 2-5KV output! Ideal for a valve or hybrid amp as it removes both the output transformer in the valve amp and the input transformer in the esl speakers.. Audio Nirvana! It was done commercially in the late 70's in the form of the Acoustat X (claimed by some to be the best speaker ever made). I recently had a look at the circuit diagrams for the amps and they were really crude....
Big enough ESL's with the right driving amps can do all the max SPL and slam anyone could possibly need as well.
Cost of course is the problem.... Although there are of course speakers selling for £50,000+ so maybe not that much of a problem other than the cost of parts in the £50K speakers is probably only £2K whilst it would be more like £5-10K for the ultimate electrostatic..

Yes, I know of the Acoustats. There were several teething problems if I recall. Never actually heard any, but they were on my radar.

These days were I to replace my Quads it would be with something from Martin Logan, or possibly Ed Saunders. Many years ago I heard some Dutch manufactured ESLs at an audio fair in London. They were superb (I can't remember the name, think it had "-stat" in t), but I have heard there were reliability problems. Not sure if they are still made.

I'm not aware of anyone currently making direct drive ESLs, so there must be a reason. Reliability, EU Health and Safety rulings, .... ?

If you were to design a valve anode coupled amplifier for ESLs, what would you choose for the valve?

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, I know of the Acoustats. There were several teething problems if I recall. Never actually heard any, but they were on my radar.

These days were I to replace my Quads it would be with something from Martin Logan, or possibly Ed Saunders. Many years ago I heard some Dutch manufactured ESLs at an audio fair in London. They were superb (I can't remember the name, think it had "-stat" in t), but I have heard there were reliability problems. Not sure if they are still made.

I'm not aware of anyone currently making direct drive ESLs, so there must be a reason. Reliability, EU Health and Safety rulings, .... ?

If you were to design a valve anode coupled amplifier for ESLs, what would you choose for the valve?

I heard the Acoustats once and was impressed! Was "Audiostatic" the name of the Dutch company? I'm not sure but also remember them.... Then there was the B&W DM70 treble driver, Shackleton or something similar treble units, the Indian Cadence units etc...

Health and safety would be a major problem with full range, also full SPL range, directly driven ESL's yes and one of the biggest cost implications if they were to be safe. High quality, safe, reliable and hum free 10KV PSU's don't come cheap either!

I didn't have a specific valve type in mind but was thinking in terms of transmitter valves which can routinely take 10KV and would be just ticking over delivering 2000WPC @ 10,000V for the bass panels and should last years. "Little" things like 845's should just about suffice for the treble panels

I had in mind something about the size of a door here BTW...

The possibility of "Motional feedback" here could not be ignored either! We have the possibility of a speaker capable of less than 0.05% THD across the full audio bandwidth and flat +/- 1dB or better from 20Hz - 20KHz... A quantum leap in performance!

As an engineer I'd love the challenge of such a thing, the electronics side of it anyway, but alas for someone like myself it would need guaranteed customers before R&D was even started... it could bankrupt even a 10 man company to put that much into R&D and then not sell any!

[DSJR]

That is totally erroneous...plain wrong I'm afraid Dave!

The fact is that they've been at the same price for years up until last year, so have had to go up in price. The issues are very simple: Changes to the design, changes to the range, the falling pound against the dollar have all combined with a need to raise prices to reflect the additional investment that the founders had to make in order to increase production and improve reliability of production and distribution. These things all cost money.

The entry level R-50 Bloom cost £565 for a fair number of years with no price hikes. Now that the pound has fallen against the dollar by 30% (and this matters because the largest ZYX market is the USA so they are priced to export there), then the "old" price would realistically now become about £735. However, they couldn't keep prices as they were and keep the company afloat or improve production or distribution channels, so given the new range, the better availability and the necessary pre-Brexit price hike needed, then the £850 for the all new R-50Mk3 is STILL a very good price compared with just about any equivalent competition. Most of the R-50 competition is above £1000 anyway, and always was in reality. I certainly haven't heard anything this side of £1K to better them.

You may well be right, but there's so much crap talked about cartridges, some companies maintaining prices fairly well and others made in the same country doubling in price over the last ten years. I understand from Rega that cantilever-diamond assemblies are bought in bulk, probably from the same supplier and then mounted to the coil formers. yes, I know that accuracy in fitting all the parts together can be labour intensive, but I have to say from experience that cachet and status counts for a heck of a lot of the retail price.*

*I cite hifi Dave's long-standing story as told by Ortofon regarding, I think, an MC2000 (sold for several hundred quid I recall) with foo-hard but brittle ceramic or similar body. His dem one was broken and a free replacement was sent; free, because the packaging cost more than the cartridge in material terms if nothing else. Check with him if you don't believe me...

So much bullshit floating around the so-called luxury 'Top End' of our industry where things are priced for status and cachet and even the Chinese imported products at around £350 retail come in for well under a ton, more like £60 if fairly recent experiences serve still...

Cynical? ME??? Well, I've been kicking around this industry now for around forty five years man and beast (make it over fifty since I started buying audio magazines and mopping up the info inside them) and seeing how certain personalities milk their customers dry does tend to have a lasting impact. Still, very few here and on other HiFi forums ever seem to buy new product via a retailer, preferring to buy used kit that's been around the block a few times, so I suppose it's moot...

[Ali Tait]

That was a project of yours. How is it progressing?

Well it's more a case of asking Nick to build the amps for me, that kind of stuff is well beyond my knowledge.

In answer to your question, it hasn't, Nick is a busy man.

We'll get round to it sometime. :-)

[Scooby]

I thought this was meant to be about Gromit's system?

[Gromit]

I thought this was meant to be about Gromit's system?

So did I!!

[walpurgis]

Thread drift is normal and expected. Extremes can be addressed, but that's not happened here.

[struth]

tell me where you want it edited from and they can go into another thread if thats your wish

[Scooby]

Here I was, hoping to hear more about your recent acquisitions, especially the Exposure vs Cyrus after you left us all in suspenders yesterday! Interesting debate going on, but not what I tuned in for

[Barry]

After 116 pages, I'm sure there is room for some thread drift. AoS is notorious for it!

Also it ought to be remembered that Members do not 'own' the threads they have started; anyone is free to contribute and thread drift is a possible consequence.

So with that, back to Gromit.