What to look for in headphones?

[AmpCity]

Have to agree with John to be honest. The Beresford is undoubtedly an excellent product but there is a lot more to be had, not necessarily at the same price level but definitely if you were to get a dedicated DAC & headamp. I find that all in one units are a good way to get into the headphone game but you quickly outgrow them - much like how people move from an integrated amp to a pre/power combo.

Some headphones do require a crazy amount of current - the planar magnetic HE-6 only performs its best with a speaker amp!

[Maximum]

Didn't Stan say he is designing a headphone amp now?

I have been looking myself, and noticed the Graham Slee Novo and the Matrix M-stage. A lot of these amps seem quite expensive.

I have also been wondering how much benefit the 7520/Caiman would get from a pot upgrade.

[magiccarpetride]

I don’t mean to upset anyone but I think you need to face a few simple truths Alex.

The Caimen Dac is by most reports a fine Dac but it’s a budget Dac Alex, much like the HRT 11, the MF V Dac, even with the mods.

I’ll grant that the cost of a particular component doesn’t necessarily reflect its performance. However, the more things a single box component attempts to do (SPDIF, USB, XLR, Headphone Amp, Filters, Switches, Displays, Finish etc etc, the less is spent on the primary function. All these extras cost money, lots compared to the basic components.

It may as a Dac perform far out of its class, but to put things into perspective, my headphone amp costs twice as much in kit form as the ready built complete Caiman.
Before people start kicking off, the headphone stage in the Caimen may be very good but I think even Stan would admit, it’s an extra; he built a Dac, not a headphone amp.

Next, while a headphone amp doesn’t have to provide large quantities of power, it does have to do what a pre amp (plus a bit) would have to do in a speaker amp setup.
How much is a decent pre amp these days?

It only gets worse; each dollar you spend doesn’t unfortunately give a linear improvement in performance, think more logarithmic from budget to high mid and then negligible after that.

You want apparently a top quality headphone listening experience so its either put your hand in your pocket and think about shelling out a couple of grand or lower your expectations.
Even at this price range you’ll have to accept that headphone listening isn’t really comparable to listening to your Maggies.

The exception to the above is when you make or mod componants, then your talking value and performance.

I hear ya. This clarifies a lot of thing for me. All this time, I was assuming (being an 'ass' in the 'assumption') that it's a given that Caiman is a solid headphones amp, and that all it takes now to get a decent phones experience is finding a matching set of cans.

Now I've learned that the source is more important than the sink (as is pretty much always the case). I agree -- you can't get away on the cheap, and Caiman is not a 'giant killer' when it comes to headphone amps (although I am convinced, after hearing some esoteric, multi-thousand dollars DACs, that Caiman is a 'giant killer', David vs Goliath, in the DAC arena). You can't be all things to all people, so the headphone amp in the Caiman is apparently a nice convenience, but no cigar.

I think this seals it for me, I'm going to move on now and spend my audio money on other things.

Thanks, I needed this!

[UV101]

It the risk of falling fowl again........

I know this guy, I like him and his products. He sorts me a good deal but I'm not affiliated with him. I've heard this product and its ace. I cannot compare to others but it sounded great when I heard it. Its reviewed in this months Hifi world mag

Fidelity Audio HPA-100/200

If you are looking for a decent headphones amp, its worth a listen for sure.

[Complin]

Personally I would go for the entry level Stax system which includes headphones and dedicated amplifier. I would get down to your local Stax dealer and have a listen.
http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/stax...odid-2508.html

In my experience the majority of combined DAC / Headphone amplifiers are compromised. To really make most of the best headphones sing you need a good heafty power supply, its just the same as speaker amps!

Avoid all the Chinese crap if you can as in my experience some of its unsafe, poorly made and not built to last. I still regularly use headphones made over 30 years ago.

[AmpCity]

Personally I would go for the entry level Stax system which includes headphones and dedicated amplifier. I would get down to your local Stax dealer and have a listen.
http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/stax...odid-2508.html

In my experience the majority of combined DAC / Headphone amplifiers are compromised. To really make most of the best headphones sing you need a good hefty power supply, its just the same as speaker amps!

Avoid all the Chinese crap if you can as in my experience some of its unsafe, poorly made and not built to last. I still regularly use headphones made over 30 years ago.

The electrostatic Stax systems are definitely top notch, very quick indeed and the transients rendered beautifully... the majority like its sound signature...

I would have to respectfully disagree in terms of labelling all Chinese equipment as 'crap.' While that may have been true in the past (and in some current cases), where the Chinese manufacturers simply tried to clone Western models using inferior components and compromised design, that is in no way the situation at the moment; instead it is the Chinese brands that are leading the way in terms of circuit topology and price/performance.

Just take a look at the Audio Gd DAC/Amps - heft R-core transformers, pure class A, discrete FET output, quality branded caps, transistors etc., and all at a price that simply blows away the competition. Our first audition of their products was in a double blind test, comparing several units against the likes of Benchmark, Cambridge Audio, Lavry, and a few others, and the result was almost unequivocally in favour of the Chinese made amps - just take a look at the internals and tell me that it is not a well made product: http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/RE7/RE78.jpg

While the standard that the Audio Gd range is made to is not necessarily indicative of the design and build quality of other products manufactured in China, it definitely goes some way to dispel the stereotype, and there are many other Chinese brands that do the same. While Western products may well look aesthetically better and be better publicised, that does not in any way whatsoever allow one to conclude that they are a better product. Take a look at some internal pics of "high-end" DACs and you may be quite stunned indeed.

Right, that is my late night, slightly inebriated rambling over - time for bed .....

[magiccarpetride]

Personally I would go for the entry level Stax system which includes headphones and dedicated amplifier. I would get down to your local Stax dealer and have a listen.
http://www.hifiheadphones.co.uk/stax...odid-2508.html

In my experience the majority of combined DAC / Headphone amplifiers are compromised. To really make most of the best headphones sing you need a good heafty power supply, its just the same as speaker amps!

Avoid all the Chinese crap if you can as in my experience some of its unsafe, poorly made and not built to last. I still regularly use headphones made over 30 years ago.

Yesterday I bought a pair of used AKG K141 Studio cans. Plugged them into Caiman, and wow! much, much better sounding than Grados!

These are old, well broken into, (still) made in Austria headphones, sporting super tacky gold finish. But nevermind, the sound is warm, comfortable, effortless, almost like slipping into a pair of comfy, well worn shoes.

Still, despite the fact that these sound so superior to Grados that it's not even funny, they still lack the sparkle and the shimmer and the life-like quality that I'm hearing from my speakers. So I have a question: if anyone here is familiar with these cans, do you think that upgrading the headphone amp could make AKG K141 come to life?

[Pete The Cat]

This won't help directly, but...

There's as much scope to improve with headphone amps as there is with main amps. A little while ago I began to explore DIY options on the basis that I figured they'd have better components for a lower price. Several are very highly rated over at Head-Fi, as are many ready-manufactured brands that seem unique to headphone amps eg Dark Voice or Little Dot. Anyway, I got a ready made White Noise Audio (no, I hadn't heard of them either) DIY amp second hand which not only knocked the socks off my Creek but which I've since found to be better than a Graham Slee Novo costing twice as much.

Headphone amps are an area where I'd definitely recommend trawling opinion on these lesser known brands and DIY options.

Pete

[Werner Berghofer]

I am convinced, after hearing some esoteric, multi-thousand dollars DACs, that Caiman is a 'giant killer', David vs Goliath, in the DAC arena

One does not need to go that far. Add approximately £ 80.– or 100.– to the Caiman’s price, and you’ll find a selection of much better sounding DACs. With every Beresford DAC I owned (TC-7520 and Caiman, all with the Gator upgrade) nearly every track on the very popular CD “Feels like home” from Norah Jones sounds distorted. In ➝ this thread Stanley Beresford claims “that some of the Norah Jones tracks are dodgy in their production”, but when I listen to the same tracks via another DAC, I have the impression that this not the production’s fault, and the music doesn’t sound dodgy at all …

The “giant killer” image of the Beresford DACs is a very popular myth here on this forum.

Werner.

[magiccarpetride]

This won't help directly, but...

There's as much scope to improve with headphone amps as there is with main amps. A little while ago I began to explore DIY options on the basis that I figured they'd have better components for a lower price. Several are very highly rated over at Head-Fi, as are many ready-manufactured brands that seem unique to headphone amps eg Dark Voice or Little Dot. Anyway, I got a ready made White Noise Audio (no, I hadn't heard of them either) DIY amp second hand which not only knocked the socks off my Creek but which I've since found to be better than a Graham Slee Novo costing twice as much.

Headphone amps are an area where I'd definitely recommend trawling opinion on these lesser known brands and DIY options.

Pete

Thanks for the tip. Pete. I don't doubt that it is possible to get a head-and-shoulders better headphone amp. My question is more like would it make sense to chase after a better standalone headphone amp in case I'm using lowly AKG K141 Studio cans? Are these cans good enough to warrant extra investment?