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Thread: Toobs (valves?)

  1. #11
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Southern England

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    I'm Howard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post

    ........ And it just makes you want to listen to music more and more and more. If that makes any sense?


    Marco.
    In 32 years (on and off) of being in dialogue with literally thousand of customers (a fair percentage of who were not mine) that statement is the ONLY one that has made and continues to make consistent sense.


    --///---
    Well, hello.

  2. #12
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Halifax, UK

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    I'm Nick.

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    My suspicion though is that the effect I'm referring to with valves cannot be fully replicated in solid-state gear, no matter the cost. It is something fundamental in the design of the valve itself which gives reproduced music its magic.
    Personally I think you are looking at that in the wrong direction Marco :-)

    There is something fundamental in the design of solid state devices that creates a subtle (ie very had to measure) but vital disconnect from reality that causes the problem our brain has (the one I wittered about before, in the whats more important, speakers or amps) to suspend belief and regard what you are hearing as real.

  3. #13
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Personally I think you are looking at that in the wrong direction Marco :-)
    Possibly, Nick. I like your way of looking at it!

    Either way, SS doesn't appear to cut it.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #14
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Galashiels

    Posts: 13,669
    I'm inthescottishmafia.

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    Certainly would agree with Nick regarding sand amps.I wouldn't pretend to have a vast listening knowledge regarding such,but wot Nick sez has been my personal experience of them.Which is why I like valve stuff.Something I read some time ago stuck a chord in me though,in that the article (can't remember where I read it) said something to the effect that directly heated triodes (I think the article was concentrating on the 300b in particular) have a distortion characteristic that closely follows the distortion characteristics of the Human ear over the audible frequency range,hence perhaps one reason why they sound so natural and "real" to many of us.Certainly sounds that way to me!

  5. #15
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Something I read some time ago stuck a chord in me though,in that the article (can't remember where I read it) said something to the effect that directly heated triodes (I think the article was concentrating on the 300b in particular) have a distortion characteristic that closely follows the distortion characteristics of the Human ear over the audible frequency range,hence perhaps one reason why they sound so natural and "real" to many of us.
    Good point, Ali. I can relate to that. I don't think it's exclusively applicable to the 300b or triodes/SETs, though. I hear the same thing with KT88s, etc, in push-pulls.

    Btw, I've been meaning to ask for a while but kept forgetting, why are SS amps referred to as "sand amps"? Excuse my ignorance, but where does the sand come in?

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #16
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Good point, Ali. I can relate to that. I don't think it's exclusively applicable to the 300b or triodes/SETs, though. I hear the same thing with KT88s, etc, in push-pulls.

    Btw, I've been meaning to ask for a while but kept forgetting, why are SS amps referred to as "sand amps"? Excuse my ignorance, but where does the sand come in?

    Marco.
    SAND , silicone!!!
    also ali, it is true that our ears prefer some types of distortion, second order in fact, and higher orders of even harmonics of the original etc, but loath even small amounts of third harmonics, and their respected higher order. anyone ever wondered why most conventional single ended valve amps use triode configuration. over to you nick...
    anthony...
    Last edited by anthonyTD; 18-07-2008 at 20:35.

  7. #17
    Join Date: Mar 2008

    Location: Halifax, UK

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    I'm Nick.

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    anyone ever wondered why most conventional single ended valve amps use triode configuration. over to you nick...
    I have just spent the last five minutes trying to arrive at a single simple answer to this, and every time I end up with a more complex answer than I want. Its rearly a combination of reasons that all make the triode the best option for the output stage of an amplifier. specially a single ended one, its a bit more divided for a push pull output stage, but thats another discussion. Simply put, its all in the curves. The way a triode amplifies, tends to produce even order harmonics, the way a pentode amplifies produces more odd order.

    But I can't leave it there, thats way less than half the truth. Pentodes can be very linear devices as well, but the thing that makes them a pentode also contains the seed of their problem as a output device. They have a high internal resistance, unlike a triode that has a low internal resistance. The low resistance means a triode can be effectivly closer coupled to the loudspeaker. But on the other hand, the pentode has much higher gain (again due to the same reason they have a high internal resistance), and much more extended HF response (again a result of what causes the high resistance). The high gain, and good HF response, means the high problem resistance can be resolved through the use of feedback, or they can be run in whats called ultra-linear, which is in effect a mixture of triode and pentode operation. Feedback can be very effective in reducing the resistance of a pentode when in a push pull amp, as the cancelation of current in the transformer means that its possible to produce a transformer with a very wide frequency response, and this allows feedback to be used effectivly. But the high standing current requirement of a single ended transformer makes it very hard to produce a transformer with extended enough response to allow feedback to be used, so its necessary to use a device with low distortion and low internal resistance, and that leads us directly back to a triode.

    See, I tried to make the answer simple, but it would have been misleading, and something along the lines of "triode are more linear" which is the often quoted reason on the web, but so far from the simple truth to be unhelpfull.

    I will go and get me coat now...

  8. #18
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lurcher View Post
    I have just spent the last five minutes trying to arrive at a single simple answer to this, and every time I end up with a more complex answer than I want. Its rearly a combination of reasons that all make the triode the best option for the output stage of an amplifier. specially a single ended one, its a bit more divided for a push pull output stage, but thats another discussion. Simply put, its all in the curves. The way a triode amplifies, tends to produce even order harmonics, the way a pentode amplifies produces more odd order.

    But I can't leave it there, thats way less than half the truth. Pentodes can be very linear devices as well, but the thing that makes them a pentode also contains the seed of their problem as a output device. They have a high internal resistance, unlike a triode that has a low internal resistance. The low resistance means a triode can be effectivly closer coupled to the loudspeaker. But on the other hand, the pentode has much higher gain (again due to the same reason they have a high internal resistance), and much more extended HF response (again a result of what causes the high resistance). The high gain, and good HF response, means the high problem resistance can be resolved through the use of feedback, or they can be run in whats called ultra-linear, which is in effect a mixture of triode and pentode operation. Feedback can be very effective in reducing the resistance of a pentode when in a push pull amp, as the cancelation of current in the transformer means that its possible to produce a transformer with a very wide frequency response, and this allows feedback to be used effectivly. But the high standing current requirement of a single ended transformer makes it very hard to produce a transformer with extended enough response to allow feedback to be used, so its necessary to use a device with low distortion and low internal resistance, and that leads us directly back to a triode.

    See, I tried to make the answer simple, but it would have been misleading, and something along the lines of "triode are more linear" which is the often quoted reason on the web, but so far from the simple truth to be unhelpfull.

    I will go and get me coat now...
    well put nick,
    that is exactly the reason why i invited someone else to explain things from the way they see it, especially someone like nick who by the looks of his output valve collection knows a thing or two about triodes! and the misconceptions often written about their lineararity over pentodes and tetrodes.
    as nick explained there is in fact drawbacks from using either types of devices, but in each case the fix is different. It all depends on the designer's requirements, and of course the knowledge and necessary materials needed to overcome each devices shortfalls. My choice is to use big tetrodes eg, KT88, the reason being, they fit my design criteria, also i feel i have enough experience of tetrodes to enable me to get the best from them in a paticular configuration, be it push-pull or single ended.
    As stated this is by no means the best option for every situation, its just my preference.
    anthony...

  9. #19
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: http://www.homehifi.co.uk

    Posts: 6,288

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyTD View Post
    My choice is to use big tetrodes eg, KT88,
    . KT66 if you are on a budget.

  10. #20
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensimilia View Post
    . KT66 if you are on a budget.
    i agree,
    the KT66 is an excelent valve wether it be tetrode connected or triode, i would even go as far to say, a KT66 when connected as a triode, its performance can be compareable to a true triode, a PX4... for example.
    anthony...

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