Cd wees wees over vinyl ?

[Mikeandvan]

Hi, its mikeandvan, not much work these days, so just mike I guess. But been having loads of time to listen to music. So, I've been quite busy on the cart front lately, trying AT 95 en and the VM 540ML (inc. Rigsby version, Miss Jones, Miss Jones), was using the 540ml until it really started to grate, picks up loads of surface noise, quite sharp, became unlistenable, so got a new stylus for the 95 EN and that's easier on the ear. Then a few days ago I played the 70s reissue of Mingus' 'Black saint and dinner lady', on Impulse, and I was dissatisfied with the sound, especially towards the end of the record, I believe there's a name for this, 'end of side distortion'? I mean that in itself is enough to make you wanna ditch the vinyl! So I thought, get this LP on CD, on to Ebay, CD now here, in a nice GF cardboard sleeve, rather than one of the regular crappy CD cases, who's hinges so often break. And lo and behold its ****ing amazing!! So, kudos to Macca, CD does indeed beat vinyl hands down, no contest, wees wees all over it like a chav beating the crap out of someone and then displaying his dominance. But but, I can't get rid of all my vinyl, I'm so attached to it, the spinning of the record, the covers, the sheer build quality of those 1210s!!

Well, this is outstanding, listening now, and the depth of sound is outrageously good, I fear now listening to vinyl is just like why?

So off to Ebay I guess now, shall i track down absolutely every vinyl I own on CD? Do they all sound better on CD?

[Barry]

Oh - you have opened up a whole can of worms there Mike.

I started with vinyl, so in the beginning there was nothing to compare it with (apart from prerecorded tapes, which were inconvenient to use). Then along came CD (we will ignore prerecorded music cassettes, which I only used for in-flight entertainment), and initially I thought them poor sounding.

But with improved CD players (for me it was the Philips CD104B) the sound became acceptable and I started to buy CD.

CDs are far more convenient to use; and whilst the marketing slogan of "perfect sound forever" is an exaggeration, I now only buy CDs. When stored the spines are easier to read than are those of vinyl LPs.

Vinyl LPs on the other hand are a crude storage medium. They are fragile, the signal needs to be modified so as to be able to be stored, and even then the distortion can be several percent. However being almost wholly second order it is euphonic and acceptable. Vinyl is fragile, easily damaged, have to handled with care and cleaned and 'fussed' with when played. The only advantage for me is the size of the sleeve, which allows you to admire the cover artwork and easily read the sleeve notes; unlike the miserable little booklets that come with a CD.

At the moment my music inventory stands at 2,000 CDs and about the same number of LPs.

Anyway that is my take on the topic. No doubt others will post with equally strong, yet divergent opinions.

[Macca]

Hi, its mikeandvan, not much work these days, so just mike I guess. But been having loads of time to listen to music. So, I've been quite busy on the cart front lately, trying AT 95 en and the VM 540ML (inc. Rigsby version, Miss Jones, Miss Jones), was using the 540ml until it really started to grate, picks up loads of surface noise, quite sharp, became unlistenable, so got a new stylus for the 95 EN and that's easier on the ear. Then a few days ago I played the 70s reissue of Mingus' 'Black saint and dinner lady', on Impulse, and I was dissatisfied with the sound, especially towards the end of the record, I believe there's a name for this, 'end of side distortion'? I mean that in itself is enough to make you wanna ditch the vinyl! So I thought, get this LP on CD, on to Ebay, CD now here, in a nice GF cardboard sleeve, rather than one of the regular crappy CD cases, who's hinges so often break. And lo and behold its ****ing amazing!! So, kudos to Macca, CD does indeed beat vinyl hands down, no contest, wees wees all over it like a chav beating the crap out of someone and then displaying his dominance. But but, I can't get rid of all my vinyl, I'm so attached to it, the spinning of the record, the covers, the sheer build quality of those 1210s!!

Well, this is outstanding, listening now, and the depth of sound is outrageously good, I fear now listening to vinyl is just like why?

So off to Ebay I guess now, shall i track down absolutely every vinyl I own on CD? Do they all sound better on CD?

Just take care as to what mastering you are buying - remasters tend to be more compressed than the original release. Not really a problem with Jazz since it mostly escaped the 'loudness wars'. But rock and pop check out the DR Database first https://dr.loudness-war.info/

Ignore the ratings for vinyl, the algorithm used gives artificially high DR for vinyl.

I've duplicated about 200 of my vinyl albums on CD. Do they all sound better? No, but I can think of only two where I'm not convinced the CD 'sounds better.'

Important to get the gain-staging of your system right, if it's wrong then CD will either sound thin and flat, or thick, stodgy, undynamic and maybe a bit harsh.

vinyl can sound very good with a good pressing, properly clean. But CD is just more consistent. I can play a record and it sounds great, then the next one up is lousy. End of side distortion is annoying I agree, and that constant background roar of stylus in contact with disc does obscure the acoustic information around instruments and vocals to an extent, if not entirely.

I find CD gives a consistently good experience every time, without either of those issues.

[Pigmy Pony]

I could very well be corrected here, but my understanding of 'end of side distortion' is to do with the arc that the cartridge follows when on a pivoted arm, whereby the stylus can at some point be at a less than ideal angle to the groove. Apparently this effect is lessened when using a 12" arm, but I recently read somewhere that other undesirable things can happen with those arms. I imagine linear trackers overcome the issues.

Another concern is the cost of cartridges/styli. My current cartridge set me back about £300 or so, and that's as much as I'm prepared to spend. The thought that using a £1000 cart might mean that playing records could cost about 50p per side is a worry I don't want to take on.

Is vinyl worth all the faff? Probably not. But it's what I grew up with, and I won't be abandoning the format completely. Even though most of my music purchases these days is CD.

I really can't argue with Macca's logic - he might have spent big on his CD transport, but it's not much more than a couple of decent MC carts.

[Mikeandvan]

Just take care as to what mastering you are buying - remasters tend to be more compressed than the original release. Not really a problem with Jazz since it mostly escaped the 'loudness wars'. But rock and pop check out the DR Database first https://dr.loudness-war.info/

Ignore the ratings for vinyl, the algorithm used gives artificially high DR for vinyl.

I've duplicated about 200 of my vinyl albums on CD. Do they all sound better? No, but I can think of only two where I'm not convinced the CD 'sounds better.'

Important to get the gain-staging of your system right, if it's wrong then CD will either sound thin and flat, or thick, stodgy, undynamic and maybe a bit harsh.

vinyl can sound very good with a good pressing, properly clean. But CD is just more consistent. I can play a record and it sounds great, then the next one up is lousy. End of side distortion is annoying I agree, and that constant background roar of stylus in contact with disc does obscure the acoustic information around instruments and vocals to an extent, if not entirely.

I find CD gives a consistently good experience every time, without either of those issues.

What on earth is gain staging and how can I get it right? I just have an integrated amp and a cd player, I connect them together, what else can I do?

[Mikeandvan]

I could very well be corrected here, but my understanding of 'end of side distortion' is to do with the arc that the cartridge follows when on a pivoted arm, whereby the stylus can at some point be at a less than ideal angle to the groove. Apparently this effect is lessened when using a 12" arm, but I recently read somewhere that other undesirable things can happen with those arms. I imagine linear trackers overcome the issues.

Another concern is the cost of cartridges/styli. My current cartridge set me back about £300 or so, and that's as much as I'm prepared to spend. The thought that using a £1000 cart might mean that playing records could cost about 50p per side is a worry I don't want to take on.

Is vinyl worth all the faff? Probably not. But it's what I grew up with, and I won't be abandoning the format completely. Even though most of my music purchases these days is CD.

I really can't argue with Macca's logic - he might have spent big on his CD transport, but it's not much more than a couple of decent MC carts.

I agree cds are easier to find! But I know my vinyl collection pretty well, as it only numbers around 200 LPs! Enough for me actually, many of them are new additions, I went through a huge recycling of my collection last year, lucky I beat the HMRC Ebay thingy or they would have thought I was a dealer!!

[Barry]

It is ensuring the output from your CD player does not overload the input of the preamp; requiring you to have the volume control set very low, and hence subject to poor signal to noise ratio in your amplifier.

[Mikeandvan]

I could very well be corrected here, but my understanding of 'end of side distortion' is to do with the arc that the cartridge follows when on a pivoted arm, whereby the stylus can at some point be at a less than ideal angle to the groove. Apparently this effect is lessened when using a 12" arm, but I recently read somewhere that other undesirable things can happen with those arms. I imagine linear trackers overcome the issues.

Another concern is the cost of cartridges/styli. My current cartridge set me back about £300 or so, and that's as much as I'm prepared to spend. The thought that using a £1000 cart might mean that playing records could cost about 50p per side is a worry I don't want to take on.

Is vinyl worth all the faff? Probably not. But it's what I grew up with, and I won't be abandoning the format completely. Even though most of my music purchases these days is CD.

I really can't argue with Macca's logic - he might have spent big on his CD transport, but it's not much more than a couple of decent MC carts.

My thinking exactly, why spend ££ss on a disposable cart, something you can destroy in an instant if you've just bought a new AT 440ml for £450, had hay fever, and f***ed it in a hazy fit of rage!! Better off spending big on a CD player, I must admit this Meridian G08 I have is rather tasty, and only £650 used, it hasn't let me down yet, it is a bit fussy on what you put inside it though! So I guess I'm comparing that with a 1210GR with a standard cart - the AT 95EN (actually a decent cart), which isn't that cheap when you consider its apparently only good for 300 hours, £85 for a replacement stylus, so about £250 compared to a standard 1000 hour stylus.

[Mikeandvan]

The improvement in sound I heard today of the cd over the vinyl version of 'black saint dinner lady' was gob smacking, and I'm thinking, life's short, why waste it listening to inferior versions of music you love.

[narabdela]

...life's short, why waste it listening to inferior versions of music you love.

Some people do, and spend a fortune doing it. There's nowt so queer as hi-fi folk.