My quest for my first deck

[colinB]

I sold my Cambridge phono for little less than i paid new. I nice amp.

[Epicurus]

Pro-Jects are sold here in my city. Regas aren't. As for Thorens, there's only one retailer in Athens and there are things I don't like about them. For starters, the lower-priced Thorenses are actually rebadged Duals. Mid-priced Thorenses (the 295 and the 700) have way too much Pro-Ject DNA in them. The 309 has a tonearm that looks daunting to set up. The 160HD looks horrible, to the point where my girlfriend of about ten years has threatened to leave me if I buy it. The 800-series don't look good, either. The only good-looking version of the 350 is the one that's veneered in maple (I detest ash; it's an el cheapo wood that only looks good when used for the body of a Stratocaster or a Telecaster - and that's about it), not to mention it's way out of my league. As for the 550, it's even further out of my league. And I'm not too keen on getting a Rega RB250-equipped deck, either; I think they're overrated, overhyped and, to be entirely honest, they don't have that look either; especially considering that, when I was a teen, I was lusting after the Micro-Seikis the owner of a local record store had.

[DSJR]

Pro-Jects are sold here in my city. Regas aren't. As for Thorens, there's only one retailer in Athens and there are things I don't like about them. For starters, the lower-priced Thorenses are actually rebadged Duals. Mid-priced Thorenses (the 295 and the 700) have way too much Pro-Ject DNA in them. The 309 has a tonearm that looks daunting to set up. The 160HD looks horrible, to the point where my girlfriend of about ten years has threatened to leave me. The 800-series don't look good, either. The only good-looking version of the 350 is the one that's veneered in maple (I detest ash; it's an el cheapo wood that only looks good when used for the body of a Stratocaster or a Telecaster - and that's about it), not to mention it's way out of my league. As for the 550, it's even further out of my league. And I'm not too keen on getting a Rega RB250-equipped deck, either; I think they're overrated, overhyped and, to be entirely honest, they don't have that look either; especially considering that, when I was a teen, I was lusting after the Micro-Seikis the owner of a local record store had.

What I meant to say is that Thorens make all sorts of turntables for all sorts of markets and sound quality doesn't always come into it. the re-badged Duals are double the price they were when they were Duals and that's sad IMO.

The RB250 is one of the greatest tonearms ever made. Only the finish and lack of versatility (together with being made with brass parts instead of the 300's stainless steel parts) really limit it. It's no good for the Techie by all accounts..

Nah, the SL12** series is what you should be looking for IMO. The Mk2 is perfectly ok, although I understand the MK5G may have a slightly better arm (wiring and so on) perhaps.

[Epicurus]

Oh, don't worry, in Greece, Duals have become ridiculously overpriced too; they sell for the same money as their Thorens-rebadged siblings. The CS455-1M goes for well over 700 euros, which is absolutely ridiculous, considering all its R&D costs have now disappeared; not to mention the salary dumping game played by Germany for all these years (turning itself into a European China of sorts).

Regarding Rega now... Well, I have some serious beef with its policy:

1. No VTA adjustment, plus they will void your warranty if you use an arm collar that allows for VTA adjustment. Excuse me?
2. "If you rewire your arm, we'll void your warranty". I beg your pardon?
3. Not to mention that, for practical reasons, I prefer detachable headshells.

As for the brass v stainless steel debate, as a guitarist I can tell you it's a huge discussion. I use a super-heavy trem block on a guitar equipped with a Floyd Rose Original bridge and it's drastically the guitar's sustain, plus it's warmed-up the sound significantly; and the composite Graph Tech saddles have evened out the response, taking a little bit off the stainless steel frets' edge.

I've considered the M5G as a purchase, but, to be honest, it only features one improvement that helps it sound better: the tonearm cable. All the other changes are either detrimental, impractical for home use or just plain irrelevant (slip mats that are only good for DJs, no hinges for the lid, wider pitch variation range).

[DSJR]

Since the techie tonearms tend to be removed and sold off for spares, then the mk2 should be fine for you.

Rega arms were designed primarily for their decks and height adjustment was largely unneccessary and irrelevant for these turntables. It's just that the vastly superior resonance properties were appreciated by other turntables and as the cartridges improved in the 80's, the RB tonearms came into their own IMO. HOWEVER, the direct-coupled approach doesn't suit every deck, although the NAS Spacedeck fits the arm pillar in a collet which allows easy height adjustment and the sound of an RB300 in one is light years ahead of many other turntables with belt drive and springy suspensions I thought..

Detachable-shell arms all have a 250 - 300Hz resonance "problem" but whether this is an issue depends on the arm and especially the headshell used IMO. The standard Techie headshell (I now have one) is FINE for mm type cartridges and seems very rigid too. For MC types, a Sumiko or similar is much better (Marco here has other recommendations and I'm sure he'll be along shortly ). For tonearm upgrades, the Jelco 750 seems to be where it's at and it looks to be beautifully finished and constructed. Someone here is doing a pillar base upgrade too, which clamps the pillar better in the manner of Linn arms (what Ivor called an "engineer's clamp.")

[hifi_dave]

Regarding Rega now... Well, I have some serious beef with its policy:

1. No VTA adjustment, plus they will void your warranty if you use an arm collar that allows for VTA adjustment. Excuse me?
2. "If you rewire your arm, we'll void your warranty". I beg your pardon?
3. Not to mention that, for practical reasons, I prefer detachable headshells.

No.1 Rega have no policy regarding the use of VTA adjusters and voiding the warranty. Michell Eng make an excellent one for use with the earlier Rega arms. For the later 3-point fixing arms there is a 3-way spacer.

No.2 Re-wiring an arm can damage the bearings and/or have a detrimental effect on the performance. How many manufacturers would allow modifications and still warranty the product ? If you had seen as many damaged Rega arms as I and DSJR have, you wouldn't question this policy.

No.3 That's your choice.

[Epicurus]

Well, here's what Rega themselves say:

Rega does not approve of any modification or rewiring carried
out on our tonearms by other
companies.
The high rigidity and weight of wires used in many common
modifications will often lead to
excessive bearing wear and restriction on bearing movement.
This shortens the life of the
product and will lower performance.
Any attempt to modify our products will instantly invalidate
your lifetime warranty.

And the RB300's manual has this to say on arm height adjustment:

The arm is not adjustable for height except by the use of a stainless steel spacer.
You should as a dealer, have some of these spacers in stock.
The arm is designed so that the rear of the should be as close to the arm mounting
board as possible. On the Rega P3 and the Linn Sondek turntables no spacers
should be necessary and none should be fitted. On some other models of
turntable it may be necessary to use a spacer to achieve the correct height, if
more than two spacers are necessary then it is a better solution that the turntable
manufacturer or the dealer should make up one single spacer of the correct
height. This should be made from stainless steel and the faces touching the arm
and arm board should be accurately machined flat

And here are my own comments on this:

1. There are many occasions when stainless steel is simply not available as a material for the construction of the spacer.
2. There are many occasions when local machine shops can't be trusted to make a spacer that is "accurately machined flat" (I speak from personal experience).
3. I would rather be allowed to adjust the height of the arm myself than have to depend on others making (unsightly) spacers and shims for me.
4. I suppose manufacturers like SME or others who allow for such adjustments don't know what they're doing and Rega are the only one who do?

Finally, rewiring an arm and/or putting it in a height-adjustable collar are absolutely insignificant - when it comes to its integrity - modifications, so they should not be reasons for warranty invalidation.

[chris@panteg]

Perhaps the Project decks are your best option , as for the 309 being hard to set up ?.

Its actually a bit of a breeze or a walk in the park ' as they say in the states .

[StanleyB]

-Technical support

-Nowadays, it's in the same price league as a Pro-Ject or Rega, so its "bang for buck" advantage has ceased to exist

Since when does price tell any of us that you get more bangs for your bucks? If either Pro-Ject or Rega had sold the same amount of decks as the Technics their would have cost less than £100. If Technics had sold the same amount as Pro-Ject or Rega, the SL-1200 would cost around £1000.

With reference to your point that you have seen the SL-1200 used in clubs etc.: Have you ever seen a sensible DJ using a Rega? Nope, because it is not built to anywhere close to the same robustness. A DJ cannot afford to see his deck break down on the job .

[chris@panteg]

If you want to go the 1210 route ' get the basic mk2 especially if your intent on changing the arm , which i recommend ' btw and the Jelco 250st or 750 would be ideal.

Timestep psu and main bearing are no brainer's IMHO.

Copper mat if you can afford it and Isonoe feet .