Do audiophiles know better than scientists when it comes to hi-fi?

[Prince of Darkness]

Ah, thanks Kevin. I know who it is now. If I remember correctly he's quite an unusual looking character with a long beard?

Yes, that's him. I used to enjoy his articles in Hi-Fi World. He allways came across as someone who regarded himself as an enthusiast rather than an expert.

[Marco]

Steve,

I think real scientists as opposed to the pseudo-scientific techie types are open minded enough to accept that not everything can yet be measured and that there still exist phenomena awaiting explanation.

Indeed. The pseudo-scientific techie types you're referring to perform a severe disservice to audio forums as their resolute dismissal of subjective assessment with hi-fi, and the nature of their bias, I believe precludes their ability to offer genuine and impartial advice to others. This is something we wouldn't tolerate on AOS, and of course is why ultimately Ashley and JC were banned.

I don't think we can throw our arms up in the air and say it is all in the ear of the individual beholder either. I believe that perceptual differences are frequently common to all who may be listening and that it is only the preferences that vary.

That's an interesting thought and I think you're right. You will also of course get the stubborn minded, dyed-in-the-wool, pseudo-scientific techie types who despite hearing subjective differences would deny their existence purely because admitting to hearing them forces them to leave their comfort zone and flies in the face of their age-old belief mechanism.

Consider perceived tonal differences between valves, for example, when the measurements show a consistent flat response.

That's another excellent point (I've also clearly heard tonal differences with valves) which shows that many measurements in audio are largely meaningless, unless you're a stats freak. As Russ says, they certainly are as far as predicting how something will actually sound.

There is more to tonality than the output/frequency curve and I have my theories as to what else may explain these tonal inconsistencies...

Let's hear them, then. It's about time you engaged your brain more on here and put some effort into writing thought provoking threads and posts. You were once very good at it!

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Tim,

I think audiophiles are much more qualified to judge audio equipment because the human ear, and perhaps more importantly, the human brain responds to things that can't be measured with man-made instruments.

I of course agree and it's what I've been saying all along

And I think audiophiles are the least qualified to judge audio equipment because as a group, they show absolutely no penchant for objectivity. An internet discussion group full of audiophiles is more filled with fantasy and wish-fulfillment than a roomful of 13-year-old girls with a scrapbook of pop idols.

LOL!

I think in general you're right, and there's certainly plenty of such behaviour in evidence on various audio forums. I like to think we're a bit more open-minded and discerning here, though

I guess it largely depends on how your mind works. If you're from a scientific background then you are naturally predisposed to experimenting and wanting to know what causes things to happen. I have no problem with that whatsoever and it's also healthy to be sceptical as the brain despite being complex and clever is all too easily fooled by a number of factors.

However it's when scepticism turns to cynicism that it becomes a problem and something which is unhealthy and counterproductive. Unfortunately I've encountered many objectivists on audio forums who display this unfortunate trait and seek to ridicule others who don't share their way of thinking. It's the perception of these people that we're all idiots that I find so abhorrent simply because it isn't true. To that end it's been most refreshing to meet 'techie types' such as Anthony, Nick and Guy Sergeant who aren't like that. Whilst they embrace scientific methods of evaluation they also are aware that measurements don't tell the whole story. They are also the most pleasant of people to deal with on-line and in real life and are never so arrogant as to portray their opinion as fact. I just wish others of their ilk could be the same and I don't understand why that isn't the case

Me?

I'm all for experimenting, objectively (if possible) and subjectively. I certainly don't just accept things because of what some magazine or hi-fi company says. Before coming to a definitive conclusion about anything in hi-fi I always test things in my own system whether it is cables, stands, equipment or anything else. Only when I have thoroughly assessed something and found it to be beneficial do I believe in its effect and this process can sometimes take months or even longer.

However the only measurement apparatus I need for this is my ears. Sure, if someone could lend me some test equipment and show me how to use it I would find it very interesting to confirm my subjective analysis of equipment or cables with objective measurements - this if nothing else would provide real proof that my hearing is good! However if the opposite happened I wouldn't necessarily dismiss what I heard. There are too many anomalies to consider.

Therefore I certainly don't need measurements to believe that an effect I'm hearing in hi-fi exists. I simply use my ears. Like Russ says about his:

They are educated, trained and very discerning. They are consistent, predictable and I trust them.

Hear, hear! (No pun intended, ha-ha.) - Ditto regarding my own. I'm sure other people feel similarly about theirs. Have faith in your senses; they might be more reliable than you think...

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

You were once very good at it!

I still am. The review of the Tube Distinctions AOS classic series amp is coming very soon and will include some of my thoughts on tonality.

[Steve Toy]

And I think audiophiles are the least qualified to judge audio equipment because as a group, they show absolutely no penchant for objectivity. An internet discussion group full of audiophiles is more filled with fantasy and wish-fulfillment than a roomful of 13-year-old girls with a scrapbook of pop idols.

Beware of that sneering disdain for those you term audiophiles for it can seriously be an obstacle to rational thought required to evaluate kit in a musical sense.

Actually, there is a scientific method capable of measuring the immeasurable in audio. It's called the ABX test. But audiophiles even manage to reject those results when they don't agree with what they must hear. No logic, no methodology, no data will stand between the audiophile and his unfettered desire to spend money on that which he must hear to justify spending money.

I'm quite happy to use the ABX test when evaluating kit. It is a useful method for camparative purposes but not without its flaws as has already been outlined above in this thread rather well. Logic, methodology and data are all very good until they simply become a process of throwing the baby out with the bathwater for they only give part of the overall picture. Of course, there will always be fools who will allow the powers of suggestion and expectation bias to part them from their money burning a hole in their pocket, but being truly discerning is a quality that occurs naturally for some, can be acquired or learnt by others and there will always be a rump remainder who'll never get it no matter what.

There is also a fourth category of cynics who clearly lack discerning abilities but won't allow themselves to be fooled, not any more at least. Once bitten and all that, or perhaps even more than once... I can think of one such specimen posting elsewhere naming himself after vermin who lives not far over the Scottish border...

The third category are often seen follow the two before it like pathetic sycophantic sheep, faking good taste along the way. The wealthier amongst them will think their wallets are the perfect substitute for good/ears and brain. For the oily marketeers its like taking candy from a baby with these types especially if the kit is, on the surface, relatively inexpensive... I'd like to think that everyone on the Art of Sound is better than that. This is a forum for discerning people who can share genuine personal experience.

[Alan]

And I think audiophiles are the least qualified to judge audio equipment because as a group, they show absolutely no penchant for objectivity. An internet discussion group full of audiophiles is more filled with fantasy and wish-fulfillment than a roomful of 13-year-old girls with a scrapbook of pop idols.



Tim

Damn good point, surely beyond refute!

Actually it is entirely human to get too close to a subject or a conclusion one has invested oneself in, which leads to criticism & ridicule; in fact a devaluing of what is precious to that individual in the first place.

To illustrate (please don't open these cans any further - they are just to make a point):

creationist vs evolutionist (the clue is in the ist - as in fundamentalist)

Both attack each other mercilessly for the gaping contradictions in both arguments. Both are close - minded to each other. Both have done more damage to their own respective fields by their own conduct - far more than any damage inflicted on each other by each other.

At the end of the day, no - one can really convince anyone else they are right - unless the recipient is agreeable. An exchange of views should therefore always be balanced and respectful.

I do agree that hi fi and music can co exist, but in my case the balance is tricky one: It is just too easy to obsess over stuff that ultimately really does not matter.

That's why I am happy to not hear too many other systems that likely will be 'better' in some corner of my mind.

Forums, especially friendly ones, are a tremendous resource of knowledge and experience, much of it hard won ( at a cost I would not be willing to pay ). I am able to keep sufficiently at a distance to be selective over what I become enthusiastic over, and perhaps to maintain view of a wider picture than I otherwise would.

Therefore I can say with confidence: I am enjoying music of all kinds as much as anyone here. I hope ( and believe ) everyone else can say the same.

And: Thank you all. For the experience and opinion that you all express and which will no doubt guide me to my next improvements, whatever they are, with minimal error and superfluous outlay. Actually, as things stand this morning, I'm not sure there will be many more meaningful upgrades.
Except perhaps some new cabling - now thats an idea....Damn!


Oh - the answer to the thread title: Who cares.....

[Filterlab]

Hi-Fi is in the ear of the beholder. The enjoyment derived from audio playback is entirely subjective and often derived from equipment that would never win any hi-fi awards. Colouration, vinyl surface noise, room acoustics can all contrive to make a sound more enjoyable than that from the best source, amp and speakers in an anechoic chamber...

Bravo to that Beechy! An award winning component is no guarantee that it will necessarily be a component that suits everyone - or anyone in fact, certainly many traditional "audiophiles" would frown or perhaps laugh at my system - but it does music plain and simple. And any valve enthusiast would certainly agree that colouration makes music enjoyable, colouration taken to mean in this instance harmonic distortion - harmonic being the operative word.

Great article Marco, I'm in 100% agreement.

[Steve Toy]

Rob,

An award winning component is no guarantee that it'll work in any system.

[Filterlab]

As I said (in a way).

However, someone must have liked it at some point.

[Mike]

Hmmm... some very interesting points/arguments above.

In many ways none of these arguments are valid really, non of them can be won or lost and it doesn't matter. At the end of the day who actually gives a toss about being right or wrong? As long as we all enjoy what we get out of our systems that's all that matters as far as I'm concerned.

If a different valve, or piece of wire or anything else for that matter, improves my enjoyment that's all I care about. If others disagree with me thats absolutely fine.

Go forth and enjoy whatever floats your boat!



All just MHO of course.