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Thread: Bass quantity, or quality?

  1. #11
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

    Posts: 19,484
    I'm Neil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRYML View Post
    Done Location and a few others

    By the way, do you prefer to be addressed as Neil in the Forum or DSDL?

    Regards,

    Malek
    Neil


    Regards D S D L
    Regards Neil

  2. #12
    Join Date: Apr 2010

    Location: The Sultanate of Brunei Darussalam

    Posts: 121
    I'm CaughtBetweenTheDevilAndTheDeepBlueSea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Hi Malek,

    Neil hits the nail on the head here:



    That's it in a nutshell. All systems have 'bottlenecks' of some description, which limit their true sonic potential. Think of your system as a tap that previously was only (say) half or three-quarters open, therefore restricting the 'signal flow' to your speakers....

    The removal of the bottleneck caused by your previous cables has opened the tap more, therefore the signal which had previously been to a degree 'held in check' is now 'flowing' more freely, so your speakers in turn are receiving a source signal of greater integrity (more of the signal to 'chew on', as it were), and are thus reproducing information from the source recording (in terms of low frequency detail and otherwise) with more accuracy and faithfulness.

    And yet some people say that cables make no difference!!

    Basically, cables are the arteries which control the flow of the source (music) signal throughout a system, and so any deficiencies in the electrical properties of the wire used in interconnects and speaker cables, or deficiencies in their overall construction as a result of the sonic effect imparted by their component parts (plugs, etc), which impede the integrity of that signal, in turn hampers the ability of your loudspeakers to fully reproduce the (music) signal derived from your source components.

    This explains why by upgrading your cables (i.e. to ones which in your system reproduce the source signal more accurately), you're now hearing deeper and better bass than you were before without having changed any actual equipment.

    As for quality vs. quantity of bass, anyone who's genuinely into high-end audio will always prioritise the former over the latter, especially since most of the music is in the midrange, and so reproducing information there as accurately as possible by choosing components, cables and speakers which optimise that area of the frequency range (along with the accurate reproduction of upper frequencies) is, with most types of music, of much more importance than gaining out-and-out bass extension.

    However, in terms of reproducing bass, once the above has been achieved, it is nice to have both genuine low-end extension, scale and also tunefulness, but such luxury does not come cheap - and even then is only realised by huge, high-quality, loudspeakers and the judicious selecting of equipment, cables, equipment supports and ancillaries, together with the knowledge and experience of how to make everything work together synergistically as a system.

    Regardless of ultimate bass extension, system synergy is the key to achieving the musical communication which allows us to suspend disbelief and feel that what we are listening to is not merely just sound, but a convincing musical performance and 'snapshot' of the real thing. Only then can we fully 'connect' emotionally with our favourite music and thus derive from it the satisfaction we seek.......

    Building such systems, and the methodology needed to arrive there, is what we champion and promote on AOS

    Marco.
    Thanks Marco

    I knew I was joining the right forum when I read the AoS Ethos

    I'm thankful that there's an ongoing endeavour to maintain a measure of "Integrity" within the forum in order to temper, if not prevent, condescending self-righteous posts which cosset the indulgent egos of the Superiority Complex-afflicted and assuage the self-esteem of the defensive "over-compensating" Inferiority Complex-afflicted

    To be fair, virtually all of us, to some degree, may fall into any one of the aforementioned complexes; I may even be an Inferiority Complex masquerading as a Superiority Complex!

    However, Life is about finding one's Balance/Centre, avoid getting stuck at the byways; never truly arriving at "Self-Realisation"

    Regards,

    Malek

  3. #13
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

    Posts: 9,074
    I'm ILOB.

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    It always great when you get that giant step in performance that brings you closer to the music
    I think the bass on Tim stand mounts )My Clapton Speakers) is pretty good; stand mounts will always be limited in good bass by physics but a really nice coherent sound
    Tim a real gent to deal with
    I would also say get the best speakers you can for your room and music taste and build the system around it, sideway logic I know but works for me
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  4. #14
    Join Date: Apr 2010

    Location: The Sultanate of Brunei Darussalam

    Posts: 121
    I'm CaughtBetweenTheDevilAndTheDeepBlueSea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twelvebears View Post
    I for one have always been interested in the quality rather than quantity of bass, which is one of the reasons I've long been a fan of ATC speakers for their tight, well controlled and tuneful bass.

    While in an ideal world it's great to have both, I would always favour control over ultimate extension. At the end of the day, most music doesn't contain a massive amount of very low bass (low 'E' on a electric bass for example is 41Hz) so I'd sooner loose a bit at the bottom end in favour of spoiling the party further up.

    The other reason why the smaller ATCs in particular produce great bass is that they are a sealed box. Yes these roll-off sooner but the potential issues of 'one note bass' because of port tuning.

    About 10 years ago I owned a pair of stand mount SCM20SLs and loved them. They had great drive and pace through the bass and any lack of extension was rarely noticed. They did need a bit of grunt to drive and I found they to work very, very well with the 100 w/c Primare A30 integrated that I had at the time. In fact the whole system - Sony SCD777ES, Primare A30, ATC SCM20SL - was one of the most satisfying I've ever owned.
    Hello Steve,

    I've fond memories of the SCM 20's. In fact, they were the first speakers that drew my attention to ATC. It was about 20 years ago, while I was walking through the hallways of a hotel during a Hi-Fi show, looking through doorways to see past the obscuring mass of bodies, trying to get a glimpse of what was being exhibited in each room, when suddenly...

    ...beguiling realistic-sounding music stopped me in my tracks, causing me to pause a moment, to gauge where the sound was coming from...

    It about three or four doorways away, in one of the bigger rooms where Musical Fidelity was debuting their first "monster" power amp. I can't recall what was it called; I just remember them to be so massive-looking, taking centre stage on the floor, driving what I expected to be massive floorstanders as well. To my surprise the MF was driving a pair of standmounts from a brand I'd never paid much attention to before, due to the mundane name and prior lack of exposure

    I was stunned that something so "small" was able to draw me in, from so far out in the hallway, with it's siren song. Surely, the real speakers were somewhere else and I was actually looking at a static display!?

    It was only on closer inspection that I realised that the mid/bass driver looks different from the run-of-the-mill drivers I normally see. Those were the biggest "centre domes" (relative to the rest of the driver) I've ever seen!!

    And so, that was how one (amongst a select few) unforgettable Hi-Fi audio moment, came into being

    Regards,

    Malek

  5. #15
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: http://www.homehifi.co.uk

    Posts: 6,288

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    My gripe with most speakers is that they are just unable to even acknowledge the presence of some bass notes. I use a audio spectrum analyser between my DAC and my power amp in order to track the audio excursions on the analyser display versus the speaker cone excursions. I have a wide range of tracks that clearly indicate the presence of sub bass, but are impossible to detect with anything other than a subwoofer. In my mind, that's both a loss in quality and quantity of the bass when 'ordinary' speakers can't even register those missing frequencies.

  6. #16
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: Hemel Hempstead

    Posts: 1,074
    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PRYML View Post
    Hello Steve,

    I've fond memories of the SCM 20's. In fact, they were the first speakers that drew my attention to ATC. It was about 20 years ago, while I was walking through the hallways of a hotel during a Hi-Fi show, looking through doorways to see past the obscuring mass of bodies, trying to get a glimpse of what was being exhibited in each room, when suddenly...

    ...beguiling realistic-sounding music stopped me in my tracks, causing me to pause a moment, to gauge where the sound was coming from...

    It about three or four doorways away, in one of the bigger rooms where Musical Fidelity was debuting their first "monster" power amp. I can't recall what was it called; I just remember them to be so massive-looking, taking centre stage on the floor, driving what I expected to be massive floorstanders as well. To my surprise the MF was driving a pair of standmounts from a brand I'd never paid much attention to before, due to the mundane name and prior lack of exposure

    I was stunned that something so "small" was able to draw me in, from so far out in the hallway, with it's siren song. Surely, the real speakers were somewhere else and I was actually looking at a static display!?

    It was only on closer inspection that I realised that the mid/bass driver looks different from the run-of-the-mill drivers I normally see. Those were the biggest "centre domes" (relative to the rest of the driver) I've ever seen!!

    And so, that was how one (amongst a select few) unforgettable Hi-Fi audio moment, came into being

    Regards,

    Malek
    Indeed Malek, the bass drivers on ATCs are a bit of an engineering tour de force. I'd heard that the SCM20s could handle loads of power (and need some due to their low sensitivity) and I had my doubts.... until I took my first look at the bass driver which looked almost indestructible!

    Other than very low bass, a very 'honest' speaker, though not one that would make any bones about revealing a crappy recording for what it was!
    Steve aka 'Twelvebears' (it's a long story)
    System: Technics 1210 Mk5, Jelco 750 arm, AT33EV via MF X-LP2 Phono Stage, Oyaide mat and record clamp. SB Touch via Marantz PM-11S1 amp and Wilson Benesch A.C.T. speakers. Mark Grant cables and PS Audio Power Plant Premier mains regenerator.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

  7. #17
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: Hemel Hempstead

    Posts: 1,074
    I'm Steve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyB View Post
    My gripe with most speakers is that they are just unable to even acknowledge the presence of some bass notes. I use a audio spectrum analyser between my DAC and my power amp in order to track the audio excursions on the analyser display versus the speaker cone excursions. I have a wide range of tracks that clearly indicate the presence of sub bass, but are impossible to detect with anything other than a subwoofer. In my mind, that's both a loss in quality and quantity of the bass when 'ordinary' speakers can't even register those missing frequencies.
    Hi Stan.

    Having spent a good deal of time recently listening to my AKG701s, I understand what you mean. Hearing deep, clean bass without the compromises so often common to loudspeakers, is very addictive.

    That said, having your cake and eating it (i.e. truly deep bass but without any of the compromises (boom, detached one note bass, slowness etc), isn't easy (or cheap!) to achieve with speakers. So as I say, if I have to choose, I'd go for quality rather than ultimate extension.
    Steve aka 'Twelvebears' (it's a long story)
    System: Technics 1210 Mk5, Jelco 750 arm, AT33EV via MF X-LP2 Phono Stage, Oyaide mat and record clamp. SB Touch via Marantz PM-11S1 amp and Wilson Benesch A.C.T. speakers. Mark Grant cables and PS Audio Power Plant Premier mains regenerator.
    (\__/)
    (='.'=)
    (")_(")

  8. #18
    Join Date: May 2008

    Location: Cricklewood

    Posts: 9,074
    I'm ILOB.

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    Understand Stan
    Since my cabinet upgrade I been hearing bass I did not was on the recordings
    Getting good clean bass is not easy but need not be expensive.
    Loves anything from Pain of Salvation to Jeff Buckley to Django to Sarasate to Surinder Sandhu to Shawn Lane to Nick Drake to Rush to Beth Hart to Kate Bush to Rodrigo Y Gabriela to The Hellecasters to Dark Sanctury to Ben Harper to Karicus to Dream Theater to Zero Hour to Al DiMeola to Larry Carlton to Derek Trucks to Govt Mule to?

    Humour: One of the few things worth taking seriously

  9. #19
    Join Date: Apr 2010

    Location: The Sultanate of Brunei Darussalam

    Posts: 121
    I'm CaughtBetweenTheDevilAndTheDeepBlueSea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by StanleyB View Post
    My gripe with most speakers is that they are just unable to even acknowledge the presence of some bass notes. I use a audio spectrum analyser between my DAC and my power amp in order to track the audio excursions on the analyser display versus the speaker cone excursions. I have a wide range of tracks that clearly indicate the presence of sub bass, but are impossible to detect with anything other than a subwoofer. In my mind, that's both a loss in quality and quantity of the bass when 'ordinary' speakers can't even register those missing frequencies.
    Speaking of subwoofers... or has this topic been covered elsewhere in the forum?

    ...can anyone recommend any that integrate well sonically (if not aesthetically as well) with the ATC SCM 11?
    MALEK
    There is no way to happiness... Happiness is The Way...

  10. #20
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,786
    I'm Martin.

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    I've been swapping interconnects around for the past couple of weeks and found that a pair of solid silver interconnects (either twixt pre and power amp or twixt CD player and pre) gave much less level in the mid-bass and no deep bass at all. Swapped to Audioquest Turqouise (silver plated copper I think)- Bass returned immediately. Not a subtle difference at all.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

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