Bass quantity, or quality?

[PRYML]

Hello All,

I'd just like to share a very enlightening (for me anyway) experience of mine...

I'm currently in the midst of upgrading my system as it's been many years since the last significant component upgrade i.e. the addition of monoblocks to drive the loudspeakers. However, it was also the demise of aforementioned monoblocks that prompted the current bout of "upgraditis" I wasn't using any form of surge protection and I now believe that the circuits have been fried, as even manufacturer specified fuse replacement failed to revive them

So, I thought, since I'm going to shop for replacements for the monoblocks, I might as well shop for an entire system, as I expect to be spending time at dealers auditioning a lot of equipment anyway

My approach to system-building before, always started from the source first (CD-replay, in this case) and then work my way from there. However, since that approach didn't work out so well for my last system, (lacks the ability to connect me emotionally to what was being played) I decided to start from the other end instead i.e. the loudspeakers.

That means acquiring the most transparent and natural sounding speakers I can find within my limited financial resources, to suit a small/medium size room. And they have to be standmounts as well, as I've an affinity for "big things in small packages" and there's also the probability that I might be moving house or even migrating. So portability was also an important consideration. Having said that, I ended up with a pair of ATC SCM 11 to replace my aging EPOS M15 floorstanders. Even though the EPOS had excellent timing and exhibits a great sense of transparency and immediacy, I decided that they were too lean sounding and felt that I wanted a more fleshed out bass output without sacrificing the excellent timing that I've become accustomed to. The ATC's are now sitting on a pair of Atacama SE24 stands partially filled with SoundBytes (steel chips).

Confident that I now have loudspeakers that are more transparent to what lies before them (due to their studio monitor heritage), I set about re-assessing the rest of my system. I had to resort to going back to using a hybrid integrated amp from Menthor (a now defunct Malaysian co.) called the Integra. I was pleasantly surprised that the 25W rated amp was able to drive the supposedly below average sensitivity ATCs. It was a morale booster as well to find that my music sounded more natural and open.

Excited with the prospect of additional improvement with each upgrade, I set about doing my research over the internet, visiting dealers and making plans to attend Hi-Fi shows etc. I was looking to replace my interconnect cables for something more transparent in order to more accurately gauge the true musical worth of my aging Marantz CD6000 OSE K.I.Signature and then see what alternatives I can find that significantly surpasses it within my limited budget as I wish to avoid making sideways changes instead of making actual improvements, as I plan to spend more than what I paid for, for the Marantz.

It was at the London Hi-Fidelity Show 2010, that I chanced upon the MAD "corner". It was a brand that has intrigued me for quite awhile with it's quirky branding and equipment nomenclature, not to mention relatively positive reviews in Hi-Fi+ and Hi-Fi World.

In an industry where reviewers tend to dissect the sound of equipment into its sonic components of bass, midrange and treble for evaluation, MAD silver cables seem to illicit a different tone in their writing. The reviews suggests that it's not so easy to do so with MAD silver cables and are often "distracted" by the music i.e. foregoing critical analysis to enjoy the music instead. I myself have my doubts about using silver conductors as past experience recalls how I found the use of silver in cables introduces an irritating "sheen" to the high frequencies. And up until recently, avoided them at all costs; which was made all the more easier due to their somewhat "prohibitive" pricing.

After conversing at length with Timothy Yung (Founder/Designer of MAD) about his approach/philosophy to Hi-Fi (also found time to talk to Ester, his wife about her experience as a musician and "sound-mixing" etc) and at the genuinely (I felt) enthusiastic recommendation of Mark Osborn, a former client turned MAD devotee/employee, I decided to push my reservations aside, keep an open mind and try the entry-level of the Silver Series i.e. a pair of 0.5m length MyPleasure. It also helped that they've a 30 day money back facility if I wasn't fully satisfied with them.

On first installing MyPleasure in between the CD player and amp, I was somewhat aghast to find that the "sheen" that I abhor was still present, even though ever so slightly. On a brighter note however, the music did seem more free-breathing and I got the distinct impression of "smoothness" and "air". The interconnects were relatively new (I agreed to take the pair loaned to the Music First room as I didn't want to wait any longer to have brand new pair delivered to me abroad; I'm based 8 hours ahead of UK time) and I decided to re-evaluate them again once they're burnt-in more.

As time wore on, the "sheen" to the high frequencies became less discernible as to be more bearable and even forgotten on some recordings. Eventually my brain was able to filter out the colouration altogether and I was able to "connect" with most recordings in my collection with the exception of a few treble-happy recordings from the late 80s onwards

In spite of my relative satisfaction, I felt that the ATCs bass did not go low enough for some types of music. I concluded that there wasn't enough bass output from the small drivers and considered upgrading to the ATC SCM 19.

By that time, I was convinced of the merits of the MAD Silver Series and decided to return MyPleasure for an upgrade to MyDiamond Signature, having read Jimmy Hughes review in Hi-Fi+. He implies that MyDiamond Signature offers better resolution, authority and a darker balance which I assumed would eliminate the last remnants of "the sheen" exhibited by MyPleasure; do note that I did not spend everyday burning in the cables though, as my work takes me abroad quite frequently, hence I can't be sure that I've fully burnt them in.

So on my return to the UK, I met up with Tim at his home (cum listening room) in the afternoon, where he auditioned some equipment for me to listen to; including the ATC SCM 19 and naturally, his recommendation i.e. the standard versions of MyClapton standmounts which sadly, weren't even broken in yet as he literally put them together that very morning! He said that he didn't have a broken-in pair on hand as they've all been sold off to customers (business must be brisk ). Even so, the MyClapton standmounts did exhibit some superlative qualities in spite of some shortcomings in other areas due to what I assume were their non-broken-in status

Spent a pleasant afternoon with him and his wife, auditioning equipment and even giving feedback on one of his (promising) speaker cable prototypes, over chinese tea and cute little sandwiches kindly made by his wife (thanks again, Ester )

In any case, I finally left with a pair of 0.5m length of MyDiamond Signature interconnects in hand; needless to say, I was somewhat impatient to install them in my system when I finally return home

On first installing MyDiamond Signature, I was immensely pleased at the absence of "the sheen". And in spite of sounding significantly "darker", the sense of "air" around the notes present on MyPleasure (which I initially assumed as a pleasant side effect of "the sheen") was preserved and more natural sounding.

And finally, the Moment of ENLIGHTENMENT! Where I initially thought that the ATC SCM 11 were slightly bass-shy, it's now sounds as if the bass was coming from a bigger driver/enclosure! Not only that, where I thought the hybrid amp's smaller wattage couldn't possibly deliver the bass authority that I yearned on some recordings, those notions were dispelled; it sounds as if the speakers are now being driven by something with more power reserves than what my humble hybrid can ever muster

I'm now left pondering on how exactly bass quality affects PERCEIVED bass quantity

Anyone care to shed some light on my experience?

Malek

p.s. I'm fairly certain that this qualifies as some sort of "tweak" hence belongs here; though I admit not exactly a cheap one However, it was money well-spent as far as I'm concerned, as it's given me back what I value most about the hobby i.e. emotionally evocative music

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Malek

Firstly what a wonderfully well written review.

Yes Tim's a really nice guy and his products are very interesting only heard them in the context of a system at that show namely the Music First room (Show Report here http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com...%A6-part-four/ ) so I can't as yet comment further in regard to my own system, though I hope to remedy that situation Tim permitting, soon.

However it sounds from reading what you have wrote, that cabling was acting as a bottleneck on your systems performance;so by moving to Tim's better cable you released that bottleneck.

Oh yes and your item is very much in the right place

Can you add a basic location to your forum details..thank you in advance.


Regards D S D L

[PRYML]

Hi Malek

Firstly what a wonderfully well written review.

Yes Tim's a really nice guy and his products are very interesting only heard them in the context of a system at that show namely the Music First room (Show Report here http://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com...%A6-part-four/ ) so I can't as yet comment further in regard to my own system, though I hope to remedy that situation Tim permitting, soon.

However it sounds from reading what you have wrote, that cabling was acting as a bottleneck on your systems performance;so by moving to Tim's better cable you released that bottleneck.

Oh yes and your item is very much in the right place

Can you add a basic location to your forum details..thank you in advance.


Regards D S D L

Thank you very much for the compliment DSDL

I WAS hoping to write something shorter and more palatable for the attention span-challenged; however, as they say, one thing led to another...

And I'm sorry, but what exactly do you mean by "basic location to your forum details"?

Regards,

Malek

[Spectral Morn]

Thank you very much for the compliment DSDL

I WAS hoping to write something shorter and more palatable for the attention span-challenged; however, as they say, one thing led to another...

And I'm sorry, but what exactly do you mean by "basic location to your forum details"?

Regards,

Malek

Hi Malek

Write as much as you like. If the challenged can't be bothered to read or can't well that is their loss imho. I like meat in what I read, plenty of detail none of this big pictures and very little text that What Hifi and now HiFi choice seem to favour. What can you learn from that ? Not a lot imho.

There is a section in your user control panel for stating where you come from, if you could fill that, in that would be good.... say London (or where ever you live) for example...just basic details.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

ATC's as a breed tend to have a very well-damped bass which you tend to sense in their small models rather than feel. Their speakers LOVE power and because their loading isn't too difficult, amps like a Quad 606 and it's descendants work a treat.

[PRYML]

Hi Malek

Write as much as you like. If the challenged can't be bothered to read or can't well that is their loss imho. I like meat in what I read, plenty of detail none of this big pictures and very little text that What Hifi and now HiFi choice seem to favour. What can you learn from that ? Not a lot imho.

There is a section in your user control panel for stating where you come from, if you could fill that, in that would be good.... say London (or where ever you live) for example...just basic details.


Regards D S D L

Done Location and a few others

By the way, do you prefer to be addressed as Neil in the Forum or DSDL?

Regards,

Malek

[PRYML]

ATC's as a breed tend to have a very well-damped bass which you tend to sense in their small models rather than feel. Their speakers LOVE power and because their loading isn't too difficult, amps like a Quad 606 and it's descendants work a treat.

Thanks for the extra info Dave

When you say "sense", do you mean purely in the sonic sense without the feeling the resonance in our body cavities?

And I think I do understand what you mean by loving power; even though the SCM 19 sounds bigger, more substantial than on SCM 11, the SCM 19 somehow sounds more cumbersome and lethargic on lower powered amps...

Regards,

Malek

[twelvebears]

I for one have always been interested in the quality rather than quantity of bass, which is one of the reasons I've long been a fan of ATC speakers for their tight, well controlled and tuneful bass.

While in an ideal world it's great to have both, I would always favour control over ultimate extension. At the end of the day, most music doesn't contain a massive amount of very low bass (low 'E' on a electric bass for example is 41Hz) so I'd sooner loose a bit at the bottom end in favour of spoiling the party further up.

The other reason why the smaller ATCs in particular produce great bass is that they are a sealed box. Yes these roll-off sooner but the potential issues of 'one note bass' because of port tuning.

About 10 years ago I owned a pair of stand mount SCM20SLs and loved them. They had great drive and pace through the bass and any lack of extension was rarely noticed. They did need a bit of grunt to drive and I found they to work very, very well with the 100 w/c Primare A30 integrated that I had at the time. In fact the whole system - Sony SCD777ES, Primare A30, ATC SCM20SL - was one of the most satisfying I've ever owned.

[DSJR]

Thanks for the extra info Dave

When you say "sense", do you mean purely in the sonic sense without the feeling the resonance in our body cavities?

And I think I do understand what you mean by loving power; even though the SCM 19 sounds bigger, more substantial than on SCM 11, the SCM 19 somehow sounds more cumbersome and lethargic on lower powered amps...

Regards,

Malek

I think the smaller ATC passive range has a more conventional coil/magnet arrangement than the passive and active 20's I've sold, used and owned in the past, but even then, they always wanted some rowing along power wise. The bass is as you described - something you don't feel in your stomach unless you go to the bigger active models - and they're a world apart TBH.

[Marco]

Hi Malek,

Neil hits the nail on the head here:

However it sounds from reading what you have wrote, that cabling was acting as a bottleneck on your systems performance;so by moving to Tim's better cable you released that bottleneck.

That's it in a nutshell. All systems have 'bottlenecks' of some description, which limit their true sonic potential. Think of your system as a tap that previously was only (say) half or three-quarters open, therefore restricting the 'signal flow' to your speakers....

The removal of the bottleneck caused by your previous cables has opened the tap more, therefore the signal which had previously been to a degree 'held in check' is now 'flowing' more freely, so your speakers in turn are receiving a source signal of greater integrity (more of the signal to 'chew on', as it were), and are thus reproducing information from the source recording (in terms of low frequency detail and otherwise) with more accuracy and faithfulness.

And yet some people say that cables make no difference!!

Basically, cables are the arteries which control the flow of the source (music) signal throughout a system, and so any deficiencies in the electrical properties of the wire used in interconnects and speaker cables, or deficiencies in their overall construction as a result of the sonic effect imparted by their component parts (plugs, etc), which impede the integrity of that signal, in turn hampers the ability of your loudspeakers to fully reproduce the (music) signal derived from your source components.

This explains why by upgrading your cables (i.e. to ones which in your system reproduce the source signal more accurately), you're now hearing deeper and better bass than you were before without having changed any actual equipment.

As for quality vs. quantity of bass, anyone who's genuinely into high-end audio will always prioritise the former over the latter, especially since most of the music is in the midrange, and so reproducing information there as accurately as possible by choosing components, cables and speakers which optimise that area of the frequency range (along with the accurate reproduction of upper frequencies) is, with most types of music, of much more importance than gaining out-and-out bass extension.

However, in terms of reproducing bass, once the above has been achieved, it is nice to have both genuine low-end extension, scale and also tunefulness, but such luxury does not come cheap - and even then is only realised by huge, high-quality, loudspeakers and the judicious selecting of equipment, cables, equipment supports and ancillaries, together with the knowledge and experience of how to make everything work together synergistically as a system.

Regardless of ultimate bass extension, system synergy is the key to achieving the musical communication which allows us to suspend disbelief and feel that what we are listening to is not merely just sound, but a convincing musical performance and 'snapshot' of the real thing. Only then can we fully 'connect' emotionally with our favourite music and thus derive from it the satisfaction we seek.......

Building such systems, and the methodology needed to arrive there, is what we champion and promote on AOS

Marco.