DIY MDF tractrix horns and frontloaded horn systems

[Angelo888]

hi Steve

Look great.
I was toying with the idea of a big wood lathe but went down the conical path (for the time being at least...) The upper mid I build was so good I thought I'd apply it to all horns and see.

your horns look great, too.

Are you considering a tapped horn?

Yes, i am playing with the idea to try out a tapped horn. I know there is improvement possible in the bass section of my system, nevertheless, that i like my basshorn very much. It extends wonderfully down to below 30hz, and has great punch and control. But there are also shortcomings, which i would like to overcome with time. What i would like to have, is more even and extended vertical radiation of bass, ideally from a bass row. The exit of the Tapped horn is relatively small, what indicates directionality. So maibe a bass row of for example 4x 12" woofers each side , and a tapped horn below, would be interesting.

I have found they integrated well once sorted (I originally had crossover and Zobel issues) they work really well doing nice deep bass support on normal stuff and where there is sub bass you hear that too. They are fast too not ponderous booming away.

yes, i have read many positive things about these.

What frequencies are you crossing at?

i lowpass the bass horn at 150hz/24db
i highpass low midrange horn at 150hz /6db, lowpass at 1,2khz/12db, the Beyma at 1,8khz/6db, and the S2 blends in at 700hz, but is padded down with Lpad. It just helps to broaden up a little bit soundstage. Its not essencially necessary, and since S2 is a rather expensive driver, and a wast to use in that way, i am selling it, and will replace it with a pair of Coral M100's, which are laying around....

What efficiencies do you have / measure?

The whole system is adjusted to match the efficiency of the Beyma, about 102db/wm. S2, and lower midrange horn are padded down, and the bass horn is active.

Do you find that sound coming off the tweeter hitting the backs of the other horns and interfering a bit to be a problem? I experimented with acoustic absorption there and found it beneficial. Cleans the already pure horn sound up a little further.

It never disturbed me, but definitively worth to make a experiment , and see if it brings some benefit.

5 way really is the way to go I think.

Well, the Beyma actually eliminates the need of a dedicated midrange channel, since it covers nicely above 1,2khz. There are some very interesting 2 way solutions with it.

Do you have one amp and L-pads?

I use the bass horns active, with Inosic RAS300 plate amp, and the other channels Viva Solista SET amp. Lower midrange, and Midrange S2, i use LPad.

I still use passive crossovers but use 5 amps, one per channel and level adjust on the line side.

Many go this route. Have you been able to make direct comparisons , do you feel multi amping improves sound perceavably ?

you can go to my forum, and select DIY Hornspeakers, AV finished.

http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/forum/

Angelo

[Magna Audio]

Thanks for the answers - Very nice ideas there.

I found that removing the L-Pads from my mid, upper mid horns & tweeters and using line level attenuation to be of great benefit to clarity and dynamics for those drivers.
Like a veil being lifted. They were good before but became stunningly clear in comparison without L-pad. Of course I needed 5 amps - 5 lots of speaker cable, 5 line signals to the amps etc. etc. but worth it.

I am trying bigger and bigger amps on the tapped horns.
I use 600W Eminence Kappa Pro LFII's for the tapped horns and a good big amp does grab them nicely.
I have started using SE amp on the upper mid and will expand that to mid horn soon I think.

I use the tapped horns 90Hz down to 20Hz and at that long wavelength there is very little directionality really. I run the tapped horns in the corners and gain more efficiency that way but they do not boom at the levels I listen to, even loud levels. You can pressurise the room so its uncomfortable if you want to or make ornaments vibrate on demo's but that is not really hifi

Ah you have S2's - yes they are expensive and interesting to see you are dropping them from the line up...

Once again thanks for sharing us your excellent project.

[Angelo888]

Thanks for the answers - Very nice ideas there.

I found that removing the L-Pads from my mid, upper mid horns & tweeters and using line level attenuation to be of great benefit to clarity and dynamics for those drivers.Like a veil being lifted. They were good before but became stunningly clear in comparison without L-pad. Of course I needed 5 amps - 5 lots of speaker cable, 5 line signals to the amps etc. etc. but worth it.

Your report is quit interesting and relevant. You are not the only one to mention that. I am thinking to use more one amp to driver my lower midrange horns. A complete active package seems also interesting to me. Digmoda makes some advanced plate amps for multi amping, with crossovers and room correction. They use ICE power amps. Thats a alternative i am studying. Don't know IMHO if ICE power amps do combine with high efficiency horns. A other alternative i was thinking about is to use Hiraga Le Classe A power amp. There is one at ebay right now, and its price seems reasonable as well. But there are two versions. One with 20 Watts, another with 30 Watts. The one with 30 Watts seems quit superior according to Stephano Bertoncello. There are some DIY versions of that amp. But i am not in hurry. I am studiyng which direction to go. I read with interest about your experience with Class T amps. I had a Trend's Audio T-amp a few years back. But it had too much treble, and clipped very easily.

I am trying bigger and bigger amps on the tapped horns.
I use 600W Eminence Kappa Pro LFII's for the tapped horns and a good big amp does grab them nicely.

I have measured my lower midrange horns, and they start to get out of steam starting at 200hz. I doubt the tapped horns work clean up to 150hz. And that is a very important frequency range, from 70hz to 150hz. Thats where all the beat comes in.

I use the tapped horns 90Hz down to 20Hz

I think even at 50hz there is directionality. Made some sweet spot experiments in the last few days, and i was impressed, putting a 50hz sin wave, and walking around the room, how perception of the signal changed. In the middle of the room, signal was reduced at least 50%.......

I run the tapped horns in the corners and gain more efficiency that way but they do not boom at the levels I listen to, even loud levels. You can pressurise the room so its uncomfortable if you want to or make ornaments vibrate on demo's but that is not really hifi

hehehe, thats cool. I like that.....

Ah you have S2's - yes they are expensive and interesting to see you are dropping them from the line up...
.

Well , i like they are still in high demand and rare. So i can sell them , without loosing money..... The Beyma's are definitively MUCH better above 1,2khz, no way of going back to compression drivers......

Angelo

[Magna Audio]

Sorry for the delay in replying - I kind of lost this thread for some reason...

yes the tapped horns only work upto 100Hz really. I cross at 90Hz. I have those fairly big mid bass horns working from 90 upto 330Hz.

Interesting about your 50Hz studies - I definitely prefer the tapped horns in the corners to swapping the other way with the drivers - seems right like that sound wise. Perhaps it is direction.

I was looking at miniDSP but remain a bit unconvinced. I'm getting a really good sound now with the corrections I've made to the Tapped and mid bass so they integrate nicely and are a real strength. Together they make bass like no box solution I've come across. Of course miniDSP might do even more for me - oh well that might be a longer term aim now.

Tell me more about the Beyma's. How high do they run up too?

I am looking at Raal Lazy Ribbon tweeters - nice but expensive. With luck I will be able to test a pair in my system for to see how they sound... Essential at that sort of money.