Solid state preamp grain compared to valves

[Marco]

Nothing to discuss then since you can only define fidelity via measurement.

Yes, but only *if* you believe that whatever measurement you're taking is telling you ALL that you NEED to know about what it is you're measuring, and thus ultimately what you *specifically* want to know!

I contend that often in audio that's not the case, which is why very little is a 'done deal', and most of us are still on a steep learning curve.

For me, as soon as a passive preamp has to deal with a 'real-life' music signal, as part of a working hi-fi system, where other factors then come into the equation, unless used in the right system, all notions of it automatically [the key word here] delivering greater fidelity, than a quality active, go out of the window.

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

Bun fight!
Just kidding, I have read this thread with interest, and from my own experience,where preamps are concerned, from owning, and building both solid state and Valve, when everything that matters within the circuit design is taken into account, it is posible to get both topologies to sound remarkebly similar, when compared within the same system.
As for passives,,, on paper, you can argue that because of their simplicity, they are, and should therefore; be the most accurate, but that's only true up until you marry them with whatever source equipment, and power amp your using, that's when the simplicity of their design, becomes their achilies heel, and thus becomes more or less apparent, depending on the system, dont get me wrong, there are many badly designed active preamps out there that suffer in similar ways, and worse, however; in my opinion, and from many years of experience, a good active versus Any passive, will win hands down in most systems!
A...

[Marco]

As for passives,,, on paper, you can argue that because of their simplicity, they are, and should therefore; be the most accurate, but that's only true up until you marry them with whatever source equipment, and power amp your using...

Exactly what I said, and in a nutshell, the reality. If the question was: 'Do passives, *in theory*, offer greater fidelity than actives?' Then I'd say yes of course (only an idiot would disagree), but NOT ALWAYS, in my experience, in practice.

Theories are simply theories; it's what your OWN lugholes tell you in the end that ultimately matters!

Marco.

[Mr. C]

Cobblers. Any active pre-amp will have higher distortion than a passive therefore by definition it cannot offer higher fidelity than a passive.

What you might prefer is a different story.

Martin

All amplifiers have some distortion how low that distortion is down to the individual components, design layout construction methods used.

Happily measure any active pre amplifier for you wish totally unbiased, a lot of the transformer type units 'ring' like a bell @ 4Khz and need a serious amount of damping inside the casework, the hand soldered point to point wiring is also left flapping in the breeze we could go into how that generates its own issues. Again implementation is the key

The LDR versions offer a better all round preservative imho if I had to use one it would be this type of passive.

Every-time I have place a passive pre amplifier in my own system, it takes a backwards step in transparency, natural pace (not artificial naim inspired falseness), stage depth and involvement. I have personally had many passive designs over the years including some ultra exotic Japanese uber constructed wonders which cost kidney transplant amounts, beautifully sweet, delicate, nice layering and fluidity in these area's you would struggle to get close even with valves, yet it was like watching a world class painter at work through a first floor window, not all of the perspective was apparent.

We have a couple of customers with the MFA reference unit, it leaves me cold (that doesn't mean its an appealing unit at all for many people), it fits certain genre's of music very well and in their systems does sound good (Not wow my dangles have had an Epiphany or I would trade the wife for it type moment) This goes back to my earlier post, it is what you like not what peter the bell-end's latest bit of equipment is from hifi-dogs bollox forum

However I have a broad spectrum of music I listen to and that type just doesn't cut the mustard with everything I listen to.

I would agree with Marco on one point though (I know hell freezes over twice this year!), passives upto £2K are generally better than most equivalent active pre's, there are always exceptions, though it is a valid point, (like Hypex Ncore modules/Tannoys/insert any forums favorite toy of the moment I would term them cheap speed a lot of bang for buck.)

Some interesting reading regarding passives

With regard to measurements on the passives I found this on the highly respected Mod squad passive.

Passive pre measurements Stereophile

The channel separation measured on the pre amplifier I use is 0.00025%-0.0005% @ 1khz and 1v even at maximum out (40V I know no one will ever use that level!, oh maybe Marco ) is still 0.093% THD

Before everyone jumps in with because it measure good doesn't mean it sound good totally agreed, however this one does!

Use your ears, in your system that is the only way YOU can decide if it is right for you not Joe blogs forum buddy group.

[Yomanze]

It would be interesting to test the impulse response of the preamp + amp, because if dynamics and slam are sucked out using a passive, it should be measurable down the chain.

[Macca]

It would be interesting to test the impulse response of the preamp + amp, because if dynamics and slam are sucked out using a passive, it should be measurable down the chain.

Of course it should.

Sorry, but whilst people continue to confuse personal preference with fidelity this debate is going nowhere.

[Marco]

Except that's not what's happening, certainly where I'm concerned, or indeed Anthony.

Great post, Tony! I shall comment later

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Yep, me too, at this moment in time I can pretty much afford whatever I want but as with most things, everything has its value and chucking large amounts of cash at things never promises the golden egg. My experience with passive pre's began in 1997 and ended around 2013 when I just gave up with the damn things. At the current moment I just do not like how they influence the sound. What I do like is what I currently have and that is why I have them as with others who have what they have. Fortunately in this game there is no right and wrong, there is whatever you want it to be and that goes for all of us. Meat and poison spring to mind and no matter what you spend on your gear doesn't make it better than the other it just makes it different. If solid state is grainy and someone likes it that way then to them, it is correct. Whatever we have we have, no right and no wrong simply different. Wouldn't it just be so good if we could focus on the damn music.

[Haselsh1]

I have given up searching for nuance that makes me sound like a pseudo scientist without the skill to back it up.

I listen, and if a component sounds better then it is better, for me. No amount of measuring can replace personal preference.

I use a range of music to determine my preference. If equipment sounds good with that music then I am going to enjoy it.

Lovely comment

[Marco]

My experience with passive pre's began in 1997 and ended around 2013 when I just gave up with the damn things. At the current moment I just do not like how they influence the sound.

Me neither, mate - and influence the sound [in their own way] they most certainly do! They are not 'transparent' devices, as some wrongly claim.

There is NOTHING I've heard in hi-fi that's truly 'transparent', no amplifier, no CD player, no preamp, no capacitor, no ANYTHING. Everything in line with the signal path, imparts its own sonic signature on the music, to a greater or less degree, passive preamps included.

What Macca (seemingly) fails to grasp, in reference to his comments about fidelity, is that if you don't trust the measurements (i.e. them revealing ALL that needs revealed), which supposedly confirms that passives offer greater fidelity than actives, when used not in isolation, but as part of a working system, reproducing MUSIC, then that argument simply falls down, and so there's only one effective arbiter left: your ears!

Marco.