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Thread: Petition for clean Brexit referendum

  1. #91
    Join Date: Jul 2009

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    Link to the full YouGov survey - instructive to will of the people espousers.
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...Trackers_w.pdf

  2. #92
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdpx View Post
    I am a little confused now as to what your position is. Do you mind if I recap what I think you have said?:

    A. In 2008 it was "fairly clear" that there was a housing bubble, but no one predicted the crash. Because no-one predicted that crash, we should not listen to the warnings that Brexit will set back the UK economy?
    What a strange argument. Comment was unrelated to Brexit and in response to comments about 2009.


    B. There is a looming global economic crisis that will originate in China, but warnings about it are being ignored, and when it happens Donald Trump will be scapegoated for it.
    Pretty much. Though to be fair, the scapegoating might not be entirely unfounded. He is correct though 1) to call China on its outrageous behavior regarding intellectual property and 2) the EU's duplicitous behavior in talking free trade but acting as a walled garden with all sorts of non-tarrif barriers designed to protect assorted vested interests).


    C. We should be paying attention to some warnings (eg about China) but not others (eg about Brexit). Also because there were no economists who predicted the 2008 crash, we shouldn't actually pay attention to any warnings at all? (Martin takes this further and seems to say warnings from economists should never be taken seriously)
    The 2009 financial crisis or the coming China meltdown are of a different order entirely to any potential Brexit disruption. Simply not in the same bracket - even if you are talking purely about UK only impacts and not globally - and it's utterly ridiculous to draw any equivalence.

    [EDIT - from my earlier post] All arguments are partisan and none, I believe, can be taken as gospel. Most Brexiteers acknowledge that there will be an initial negative impact but even the worst case treasury predictions were not catastrophic in this regard.



    D. Anything said by anyone in the EU should be discounted because they have a vested interest in making us think it will all go very badly for us if we leave.
    Yup pretty much. They have a vested interest in making an example of us, and we should have known that from Day 1 and acted accordingly. Our whole approach to the negotiation has been utterly cack-handed and May will go down in history as one of the most hapless prime minsters ever, making even Gordon Brown look good in the process.

    Indeed I suspect that there's a modest chance that Brexit might not happen because of this, which the more conspiracy minded might well believe was intentional all along. (I'm not, I'm firmly in the cock-up theory of Government as opposed to conspiracy theories .. but I can certainly see there's a case for that viewpoint).
    Last edited by montesquieu; 20-07-2018 at 14:18.

  3. #93
    Join Date: Mar 2009

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    I'm Patrick.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Of course there will be negative consequences and these should have been stated clearly. The argument for Brexit is a long-term one, I can't see how it will fail to have impact on manufacturing supply chains and consequently on investment and jobs in some of those sectors, and the short-term pain associated with that may appear to be severe as the sector is very good at making a noise and the media will report it with glee.
    Yeah, so long as the pain is not personally ours, who cares? I am all for 'principles' so long as someone else pays for them ...

    (What no one advocating Brexit seems to acknowledge is that doing any kind of trade deal, or deal at all, with anyone, means giving up some sovereignty. Just look at the power the US legal system has over British citizens when it comes to pursuing US aims.)

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    All in all though, live outside the EU is perfectly possible and some things - food for example - will be cheaper if we move away from compulsorily subsidising French and Italian rural lifestyles, which is what the ruinously expensive CAP is all about!
    Is cheaper better though? Could you tell a cheaper chlorine-washed chicken from an expensive unwashed one in your supermarket? Or hormone-feed beef? Do you care about the welfare of the animals whose flesh or eggs you eat ... or whose milk you drink? Do you care about the shape of our countryside or whether the planet is damaged shipping cheaper food half way around the world?

  4. #94
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Dixon View Post


    Is cheaper better though? Could you tell a cheaper chlorine-washed chicken from an expensive unwashed one in your supermarket? Or hormone-feed beef? Do you care about the welfare of the animals whose flesh or eggs you eat ... or whose milk you drink? Do you care about the shape of our countryside or whether the planet is damaged shipping cheaper food half way around the world?
    We already have Thai chicken and seafood (in theory to EU standards but very hard to monitor), Danish pork (much lower animal welfare standards than ours), French veal and foie gras made to traditional (pretty cruel) methods. EU vested interests are everywhere in local exceptions to regulation.

    The chlorinated chicken thing is held up as the great example, but in reality that will not be allowed, nor growth hormone beef - consumers are far too educated. But at the moment we could be getting far more food from non-EU sources but can't because of import tarrifs up to 60% along with many rules that are non-functional and purely obstructionist.

    Again, scare tactics. Don't believe everything you read in the Groan.

  5. #95
    Join Date: Feb 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by ff1d1l View Post
    Link to the full YouGov survey - instructive to will of the people espousers.
    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...Trackers_w.pdf
    The "WILL OF THE PEOPLE" argument is clearly nonsense. I am not suggesting that the result of the referendum was anything other than c. 52/48 for leave, but rather that the way that is being used is fundamentally dishonest. The dishonest argument being put forward by Rees-Mogg and all the other hard-Brexiters is that anything less than a no deal brexit would disrespect the result of the referendum.

    The Prime Minister went unchallenged the other day when responding to Peter Bone saying that his activists were feeling betrayed.
    She said "I believe this is what people voted for when they voted leave."

    And that's the problem here. No-one knows what people actually had in mind when they voted, because that was not the question. Theresa may doesn't KNOW what people voted for, she can only guess.

    It is all just a question of interpretation, and as soon as anyone suggests anything they are shouted down for suggesting something that "wasn't what people voted for." It is two years on and no-one has a clue what to expect, any warnings are rubbished no matter where they come from, and we are expected to be satisfied with "calm down don't worry it's all going to be fine although we can't actually explain how".

    Meanwhile our freedom of movement is set to be dramatically curtailed, which appears to be just tough shit because "the will of the people" doesn't want to go and live in Italy anyway, so suck it up you lost get over it.

    My prediction is this is going to all end in a complete and utter shit show which will ultimately be blamed upon "remoaners", the EU, and (that old favourite) immigrants.


    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    The chlorinated chicken thing is held up as the great example, but in reality that will not be allowed...
    see above "don't worry it's all going to be fine" -although we can't actually guarantee it. This will depend very much on how well we negotiate our trade deals. Judging by how well we are failing to negotiate our exit from the EU, forgive me if I do not share your confidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    What a strange argument. Comment was unrelated to Brexit and in response to comments about 2009.
    I confused you with another - apologies
    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Indeed I suspect that there's a modest chance that Brexit might not happen because of this, which the more conspiracy minded might well believe was intentional all along. (I'm not, I'm firmly in the cock-up theory of Government as opposed to conspiracy theories .. but I can certainly see there's a case for that viewpoint).
    Here's hoping.
    Last edited by rdpx; 20-07-2018 at 14:43.

  6. #96
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdpx View Post
    The "WILL OF THE PEOPLE" argument is clearly nonsense. I am not suggesting that the result of the referendum was anything other than c. 52/48 for leave, but rather that the way that is being used is fundamentally dishonest. The dishonest argument being put forward by Rees-Mogg and all the other hard-Brexiters is that anything less than a no deal brexit would disrespect the result of the referendum.

    .
    I agree, the ref was in or out but the nature of out was not defined so the idea that anything but a hard brexit is not the will of the people doesn't stack up.

    re economists: I did not say that they should never be listened to. The point I was making was that in practice they are not listened to. The reasons are twofold

    1) Nobody is an 'expert' on economics.
    2) For every economist who says one thing you can find an economist who says the exact opposite.
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  7. #97
    Join Date: Feb 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Similarly, when we had the first referendum back in 1975, "in" wasn't what it became 40 years later.
    How is that similar?

  8. #98
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    Heath knew what we were really voting for - entry into a nascent European Superstate. He just failed to mention that at the time.
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  9. #99
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    Bloody Brexit... BORES THE SHITE OUT OF ME, AND AM FED UP HEARING ABOUT IT!!!!



    Carry on....

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  10. #100
    Join Date: Feb 2015

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Bloody Brexit... BORES THE SHITE OUT OF ME, AND AM FED UP HEARING ABOUT IT!!!!
    I think we can all agree on that really. It would be nice to just be able to get on with our lives without everyone screaming at each other.

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