The Snake Oil Machine

[Pharos]

As with all systems, the law of limiting factors comes in, this producing diminishing returns as more an more R&D is financed.

We all have limited finances, and so have to define a cut-off point beyond which we at not prepared to go.

To me snake oil is utterly inexcusable because so rarely is there any empirical validation of the product, let alone science to back it up.

I've just jumped from a pair of speakers costing about £2k to a pair costing £25k, yes they are better, but is that difference worth it, and do I now think about a £150k pair?

[alphaGT]

As with all systems, the law of limiting factors comes in, this producing diminishing returns as more an more R&D is financed.

We all have limited finances, and so have to define a cut-off point beyond which we at not prepared to go.

To me snake oil is utterly inexcusable because so rarely is there any empirical validation of the product, let alone science to back it up.

I've just jumped from a pair of speakers costing about £2k to a pair costing £25k, yes they are better, but is that difference worth it, and do I now think about a £150k pair?

It’s true that Beauty is in the ear of the beholder. Moving up the food chain with speakers is not snake oil, as you’ve said, yes, they are better!

I can understand there are R&D costs, but when spread out over many thousand pairs of speakers, it shouldn’t be more than a few dollars. And of course the cost of advertising, participating in all the hi fi shows, etc. etc. that can jack the cost of an audio product, but once again, if you spread that cost out across many thousand pairs they expect to sell, it should be affordable. Then Marketing costs, the dealers share, shipping costs, etc. So, then comes production costs, what does it actually cost to buy the parts and assemble this speaker? It can probably be argued that $10,000, $20,000 can be a reasonable asking price, depending on the complexity of such speakers. But, what happens when they go north of $100,000? Then, they begin to have a hard time justifying their price. It’s certainly not in the materials, as I was saying you can build a large house with that much money! It’s not a 12 cylinder Ferrari, it’s a wooden box, with speakers in it. Made of paper, copper windings and steel frame. The materials, whatever they are, are not that exotic. And the science behind it is not magic! Theil and Small came up with all the equations needed to design a speaker many, many years ago. If you ask them to justify the price, you can be sure they will decline to do so. It’s just like a Rolex watch, or diamond ring, it’s just a toy for the filthy rich to show off their wealth, to own what others can not afford. In fact, if they didn’t charge so much money for it, the filthy rich probably wouldn’t want it? Are they better than your $25k speakers? You can bet it’s not by much, if at all.

Russell

[Joe]

I've just jumped from a pair of speakers costing about £2k to a pair costing £25k, yes they are better, but is that difference worth it, and do I now think about a £150k pair?

Depends on a) what you mean by 'worth it' and b) how much money you've got. If you could easily afford a £150k pair, I can't see why you wouldn't want to hear what they could do. Even if the improvement is relatively small, but still perceptibly improves on the £25k pair, why not? It's your money. People will pay many multiples of £25k for a house with one more bedroom, or in a 'nicer' area than where they're currently living. (Obviously there's no point tormenting yourself if you could never afford the £150k pair).

[Pharos]

Most people would think that what I have done is completely inappropriate and disproportional given my income status, and I even feel guilty at having bought my current speakers. (I don't run a car).

I'm certainly not going any further, and they were bought from the results of a legal case, and to me were devoid of the 'jewellery' problem.

[George47]

Whether we like it or not a lot of companies sell products for what the market will bear rather than what it is worth. In hifi, it is often stated that equipment sells for about 5x its manufacture costs. But audio is not unique, that mobile phone in your pocket costs very little to make in China but there is so much demand for iphone10s they can charge £1,000. Same for laptops and destop computers. And cosmetics and druges are even worse.

And once you get to cables then the multiplier can become very big with some companies re-badging cheap cables made elsewhere at a suitable mark up (Chord?)

However, a lot of these companies soon disappear. Although the markup is high the lifetime is not.

Fortunately, it is even shorter for the real snake oil charmers where you pay $XX for a phone call.

[Gazjam]

Back to the product for a sec...DIY one and report back what you think?

[AD Audio]

My original point was not so much about the product but the lack of scientific scrutiny or analysis by Hi Fi World. Normally they would give a good run down and technical test on a product eg 'uses a Burr Brown DAC and discrete output stage' along with some measurements which might show noise reducing by a few dB or whatever. But in this case we're expected to take everything on trust

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Gazjam]

Fair point David,
but how would you measure it...impedance, continuity?

Things like that I’d run a mile if I wasnt able to demo it in my system first.
Guess they gave a subjective opinion and sometimes the science bit isn’t there to back it up.
I.e. Valve amps measure worse but can sound better, turntables have limited frequency range compared to CD, but why can they sound better.

worth at least trying maybe, not at that price though without a home trial.

...kinda thing.

[Marco]

I notice that no-one has commented on Hugo's excellent post earlier, which certainly sums up things from my point of view... That's usually the case on these threads when someone says something sensible

Marco.

[struth]

Not been following this tbh but I agree with him