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Thread: Tempting Martin Logans

  1. #21
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

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    I'm Russell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    Your Legacies going down to 18 Hz does tend to infer that they will have 30Hz upwards guaranteed to be real and flat, my own go down to 22Hz, and I feel comforted, not by them reproducing anything as low as say, 25Hz, but by them probably being right above 30Hz.

    I think there is little energy below 30Hz on most recordings.
    I recall a magazine article many, many years ago where the author examined a bunch of recordings that he believed to have bass content. Classical music, rock and synth music. All kinds, and only two or three of them had any content below 30hz. And none had any below 25hz. Most were way up in the 40’s! So, reaching below 20hz could be considered overkill. Most of us aren’t setting around listening to test tones. But you make a great point! If it’ll do 20hz, then it should be good and flat at 30hz!

    One of my biggest issues with my Legacys, is too much bass. I had the opposite problem before I got the Krell. I had a Crown PA amp with 450 class D Watts on the bass, and a Forte’ Model 3 on the tops, I’m not sure if they do 150 or 200 Watts? Of A/B power. It sounded good! But, somehow was lacking, it was, uninteresting. Uninvolving, lackluster. So the Krell fixed that! It’s compelling! And it flat out rocks! Vinyl really draws me in. CD’s are so bright and spotless! Even FM is interesting. But, it booms. A frequency is resonant, and it booms, and I’m not sure what to do about it. One of the reasons I’m thinking perhaps these are just too big for my space? But, they shouldn’t be, a 16 x 18 is not that small. I’ve got a few more things to do before I pass final judgement. Such as, new interconnect cables from preamp to amp, I’m using plain old microphone cable now. And a new preamp could do wonders? Or not. That’s kind of a crap toss right there, depending on the preamp. But my Parasound Halo 3 is a nice pre, but not in the same class as the rest of my gear. Cost about $800 new, I got it for $300. I love all its features! Lots of inputs, digital control, remote, it’s punching way above its weight class. But can it compete with a $5000 pre? I seriously doubt it. I am hesitant to get rid of it, because high priced preamps generally do not have tone controls.

    So, replacing the speakers could be a quick fix? Or, it could just give me a whole new set of problems? If things aren’t right, I doubt speakers will solve the problem. Not that anything is wrong! It does many things right! But it seems my speakers ability to deliver lots of bass is being fully exploited. Ive considered somehow wiring up an L pad behind the speaker terminals? I’m not sure what effect that will have on their overall sound? But it could be an inexpensive project to find out.

    While these speakers rock! Have great definition and a smooth top end, saying I do tame the bass, they still do not have that detached sound of electrostatics, that sound stage that floats in the air between the speakers. So, like I was saying, it would be cool to have both pairs. I don’t have a wife around to tell me not to!

    Russell

  2. #22
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

    Posts: 51,624
    I'm Geoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaGT View Post
    I recall a magazine article many, many years ago where the author examined a bunch of recordings that he believed to have bass content. Classical music, rock and synth music. All kinds, and only two or three of them had any content below 30hz. And none had any below 25hz. Most were way up in the 40’s! So, reaching below 20hz could be considered overkill.

    Russell
    Definitely agree with that. There are few recordings with extremely deep bass on. Not that it concerns me these days, I just enjoy the music and as long as the bass seems well presented, I don't give it much thought.

    Having said that, I know my Tannoys will comfortably reproduce notes down to 30 Hz or maybe a bit below. However, my next speakers (a project) will probably start progressively rolling off below about 45Hz, but it won't bother me.

  3. #23
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by walpurgis View Post
    Definitely agree with that. There are few recordings with extremely deep bass on. Not that it concerns me these days, I just enjoy the music and as long as the bass seems well presented, I don't give it much thought.

    Having said that, I know my Tannoys will comfortably reproduce notes down to 30 Hz or maybe a bit below. However, my next speakers (a project) will probably start progressively rolling off below about 45Hz, but it won't bother me.
    Same here, my present DYI speaker project I hope to reach 40hz. From a single 8”, woofer.
    I’ve had speakers in the past that didn’t go that low, and I never really felt cheated.

    Russ

  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2008

    Location: Suffolk, UK

    Posts: 1,473
    I'm Paul.

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    If you can have the MLs around 6 feet away from any walls they tend to sound great. One thing to watch for is that the panels on older MLs often loose conductvity on the coatings which reduces volume and can make them sound a bit lifeless. ML do sell replacements for most of their speakers, so you should check if they do for the model you are looking at and factor in the cost as a possible addition.
    ~Paul~

  5. #25
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

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    I'm Russell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalsea View Post
    If you can have the MLs around 6 feet away from any walls they tend to sound great. One thing to watch for is that the panels on older MLs often loose conductvity on the coatings which reduces volume and can make them sound a bit lifeless. ML do sell replacements for most of their speakers, so you should check if they do for the model you are looking at and factor in the cost as a possible addition.
    Good advice on the replacement panels. I know they do, and have seen used ML’s for sale that claim to have new panel elements. But, you are right that one should not assume they sell replacement panels for their older models. They could be discontinued?

    6 feet from the side walls would be no problem, but from the back wall about 4 feet may be my maximum. Which may be less than optimal, but that’s probably part of the problem with my Legacy speakers? They are only 3 feet from the back wall. I can pull them out for serious listening sessions, but they have to be pushed back to not be in the walk way. So, I fail to move them most of the time. At 200lbs each, it’s not that simple.

    Russ

  6. #26
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

    Posts: 1,861
    I'm Dennis.

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    If your Legacies are ported Russell, you can consider trying partial blockage of the ports. This is done professionally when the design is decided, either with straws crammed into the port, they producing airflow frictional losses, or using a sponge cylinder.

    Easy to experiment non destructively using socks.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
    If your Legacies are ported Russell, you can consider trying partial blockage of the ports. This is done professionally when the design is decided, either with straws crammed into the port, they producing airflow frictional losses, or using a sponge cylinder.

    Easy to experiment non destructively using socks.
    Brilliant idea, I’ve heard of shoving socks in ports, but I can’t say why it hasn’t occurred to me. If nothing else it could move the resonant frequency.

    Russ

  8. #28
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 6,843
    I'm Justin.

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    Panels are dodgy things. Sooner or later they will fail. You should always factor in the cost of ownership of panels, as running costs can be higher over a number of years than conventional speakers.

    Maggies, Apogees, Martin Logans, Quads etc etc = sooner or later they will all f^ck up.

    Here's the best available data for ML panel life that I am aware of.

    Be aware that Paradigm bought ML a number of years ago now. That shook the company up a bit, and it also greatly increased the price of replacement panels. Indeed, replacements will cost you much more than the second hand price of many models these days.

    So, in the words of Clint Eastwood, do you feel lucky, punk?

    I went through a number of sets of replacement panels in 17 years for two different ML models.

    Classic early signs of panel failure are loss of HF, loss of output in one speaker relative to another, panel resonances that become audible etc etc.

    I actually had to go through three sets of replacement panels for one pair of panels when it was time to change, because the first two sets of replacement panels were duff, with only the third being acceptable. Supplied by Oxford Audio Consultants, but it wasn't their fault (I believe).

    These days I would want to take a laptop and a test mic with me if I was going to buy a used pair.

    I am sorry to be so negative. I put up with all the inconvenience because I loved the things. I did so for 17 years.

    Nowadays the only ones I think are any good (I basically think planar magnetic speakers are better when done well) are the CLX and the Neolith. But look at the cost of the Neolith!

    The best 2nd hand buy I would say on price/performance would be the ML Ascent.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Bristol

    Posts: 6,843
    I'm Justin.

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    BTW if you took the trouble to look at the panel poll, I personally do not believe the people who have voted 19+ years.

    If they had a panel replacement, I believe they would be in for a shock.

    Also be aware there may be some dishonesty and tactical voting going on.

    So, take the results of the poll with a bit of a pinch of salt, but it is obvious people have trouble with them. Panel issue fault type posts have appeared on the forum a lot over the years.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    All good food for thought. If I should consider some electrostatics, I’ll be sure to avoid anything with too much age on it. I saw a nice pair of CLX today, considerably higher priced than the ones at the top of this thread, like $5k.

    Russ

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