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Thread: New phono stage: valve or solid state?

  1. #1
    Join Date: May 2015

    Location: Greece

    Posts: 249
    I'm Panos.

    Default New phono stage: valve or solid state?

    Hi am a long time Croft fan (and customer) since 1989.

    I am in the process of having my Croft Micro 25R upgraded to Micro 25RS Line-only. This means I will lose the built-in phono stage and I will need a new, external one.

    Logically, I am considering a Croft RIAA RS, which unfortunately I am not able to audition (as I live in Greece, and it's not easy to find such a model without ordering it). I have two concerns with the Croft phono stage: a) it accepts only high output cartridges, e.g. MM/MI/HOMC and b) has no settings (gain, loading, etc.) at all for matching it to the cartridge at hand. I currently have a Cartridge Man Music Maker III (high output moving iron), but what happens if I decide to go for a low output MC? I have been thinking of the following: Benz Micro Wood SL, Shelter 501 MkIII and Lyra Delos. This means I would need a SUT upstream the Croft RIAA, which perplexes things.

    Alternatively, I have auditioned an ASR Mini Basis Exclusive (German solid state phono stage), which sounded very nice to me and is quite flexible, as it can accommodate both MM and MC, just by flipping some internal switches to set gain, loading, etc. But I have not been able to put the ASR against a Croft RIAA phono stage.

    So, comments/ideas, please? Should I go for the valve or the solid state phono stage? Any other phono stage alternatives (models) perhaps, of the same of better sound quality?

    Thanks in advance!

    Panos
    System1: Lenco L75 with custom plinth, SLAT, sph bearing, SG4 external power supply + Alfred Bokrand AB-309 tonearm + Denon DL103R (aluminum body) + Well Tempered 12" tonearm clone + Denon DL103R (wooden body), ASR Mini Basis Exclusive HV, Marantz CD6005, LAB12 DAC1 SE+, Hattor BIG passive + active pre, Lab12 Suono power amp, Falcon LS3/5a Gold Badge, LAB12 Gordian, Belden 8428, Black Cat Red Level Triode, LAB12 Knack MkII

    System 2: Roksan Xerxes original (HiFi Inspire plinth) with Maxon ReMax motor + Audiomods Series6 + Ortofon Cadenza Black microridge retipped, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive, Marantz CD6003, Croft Micro25R + Series7R monoblocks (110W/ea), Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniv.

    System 3: Marantz CD6003, Croft SuperMicroII ('R' spec by Croft, Tesla E83CC in phono)+ Series7, Snell Type EII (with bypass caps, new internal wiring, WBT nextgen 0703Cu), Mark Grant HDX1, Atlas Hyper 3.0

  2. #2
    Bigman80 Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pankon View Post
    Hi am a long time Croft fan (and customer) since 1989.

    I am in the process of having my Croft Micro 25R upgraded to Micro 25RS Line-only. This means I will lose the built-in phono stage and I will need a new, external one.

    Logically, I am considering a Croft RIAA RS, which unfortunately I am not able to audition (as I live in Greece, and it's not easy to find such a model without ordering it). I have two concerns with the Croft phono stage: a) it accepts only high output cartridges, e.g. MM/MI/HOMC and b) has no settings (gain, loading, etc.) at all for matching it to the cartridge at hand. I currently have a Cartridge Man Music Maker III (high output moving iron), but what happens if I decide to go for a low output MC? I have been thinking of the following: Benz Micro Wood SL, Shelter 501 MkIII and Lyra Delos. This means I would need a SUT upstream the Croft RIAA, which perplexes things.

    Alternatively, I have auditioned an ASR Mini Basis Exclusive (German solid state phono stage), which sounded very nice to me and is quite flexible, as it can accommodate both MM and MC, just by flipping some internal switches to set gain, loading, etc. But I have not been able to put the ASR against a Croft RIAA phono stage.

    So, comments/ideas, please? Should I go for the valve or the solid state phono stage? Any other phono stage alternatives (models) perhaps, of the same of better sound quality?

    Thanks in advance!

    Panos
    For a long time, I've sworn by Valve phonostages but recently a Solid-state jobbie made me see the value in the format.

    There are few Phonostage that make me want to spend some money and less that will do what you want.

    If you like valves, want flexibility for loading and also something that does MM/MC then I think it's worth having a chat with Firebottle about his Vivant. I can't think of other Valve phonostages that have that option.

    Personally, I'd avoid the need for SUTs, it's a minefield.

    If you go Solid-state, then you'll have to search on the internet elsewhere for information on the best Solid-state phonostage I've heard.

    Then there's the Paradise phonostage. If you can find one that is!

  3. #3
    montesquieu Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pankon View Post
    Hi am a long time Croft fan (and customer) since 1989.

    I am in the process of having my Croft Micro 25R upgraded to Micro 25RS Line-only. This means I will lose the built-in phono stage and I will need a new, external one.

    Logically, I am considering a Croft RIAA RS, which unfortunately I am not able to audition (as I live in Greece, and it's not easy to find such a model without ordering it). I have two concerns with the Croft phono stage: a) it accepts only high output cartridges, e.g. MM/MI/HOMC and b) has no settings (gain, loading, etc.) at all for matching it to the cartridge at hand. I currently have a Cartridge Man Music Maker III (high output moving iron), but what happens if I decide to go for a low output MC? I have been thinking of the following: Benz Micro Wood SL, Shelter 501 MkIII and Lyra Delos. This means I would need a SUT upstream the Croft RIAA, which perplexes things.

    Alternatively, I have auditioned an ASR Mini Basis Exclusive (German solid state phono stage), which sounded very nice to me and is quite flexible, as it can accommodate both MM and MC, just by flipping some internal switches to set gain, loading, etc. But I have not been able to put the ASR against a Croft RIAA phono stage.

    So, comments/ideas, please? Should I go for the valve or the solid state phono stage? Any other phono stage alternatives (models) perhaps, of the same of better sound quality?

    Thanks in advance!

    Panos
    First of all I think you are sensible to stick with a good quality valve phono stage as the basis of your vinyl setup, there is no need to have it adjustable 47k ohm is fine.

    There are some good solid state ones around but in general, valve phono stages are (in my experience) tend to be more musical for the same amount of spend, though not necessarily quieter or more detailed. The Croft RS may well be a sensible proposition (I haven't heard one personally) but there are quite a few others around that I'm sure would be of equal quality for the same sort of cash.

    All the MC cartridges you mention are straightforward in terms of matching, with plenty of SUT options available to suit. SUTs are not anything to be afraid of but expect to spend almost as much on one as you did on your phono stage to get optimum results. Alternatively a good adjustable head amp would allow some flexibility and can approach what a decent but expensive SUT can do while costing less cash and introducing fewer challenges around hum/placement/ground loops etc - all of these are surmountable but can and do put some people off.

    Personally I wouldn't bother with an adjustable MC/MM solid state phono stage, most in my experience have disappointed compared to alternative approaches - a single gain stage for the whole lot is a tough ask and a good MM stage + decent SUT or head amp will almost always provide a better sound in my experience.

  4. #4
    Join Date: May 2017

    Location: West Sussex, UK

    Posts: 775
    I'm Steve.

    Default

    A good head amp is the way i went and I've never looked back

    Steve
    Turntable; Rega p8
    Cartridge; Alpheta mc
    Phono Stage; Rega Aria, Bigbottle 3 mm/mc
    Amplifier; Rega Elicit
    Speakers; Rega Rx3

  5. #5
    montesquieu Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by STD305M View Post
    A good head amp is the way i went and I've never looked back

    Steve
    I'm an SUT veteran and in general the result is better so long as you use a decent one .. but a head amp is certainly a simpler option for many.

    Having said that, a top quality head amp is in the same cost bracket as a good SUT.

  6. #6
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

    Default

    First question, how much are you looking to spend? Phono amps cover the map, from £100 to £10,000.

    Having a price point in mind can help narrow the field. I’ve often thought one should spread their money evenly, approximately the same amount for the ‘table, the arm, the cartridge, and the preamp. But that is not a hard fast rule, and good deals can offset it too.

    Russell

  7. #7
    Join Date: May 2015

    Location: Greece

    Posts: 249
    I'm Panos.

    Default

    My budget is around £1.5-2K for the phono stage (+ SUT, if required).

    By the way, the rest of my system consists of Croft Micro 25 RS line-only preamp (soon to be received from Glenn) + Croft Series 7R monoblocks (upgraded to 110W / channel) + Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th anniversary.

    Thanks for the suggestions.
    System1: Lenco L75 with custom plinth, SLAT, sph bearing, SG4 external power supply + Alfred Bokrand AB-309 tonearm + Denon DL103R (aluminum body) + Well Tempered 12" tonearm clone + Denon DL103R (wooden body), ASR Mini Basis Exclusive HV, Marantz CD6005, LAB12 DAC1 SE+, Hattor BIG passive + active pre, Lab12 Suono power amp, Falcon LS3/5a Gold Badge, LAB12 Gordian, Belden 8428, Black Cat Red Level Triode, LAB12 Knack MkII

    System 2: Roksan Xerxes original (HiFi Inspire plinth) with Maxon ReMax motor + Audiomods Series6 + Ortofon Cadenza Black microridge retipped, ASR Mini Basis Exclusive, Marantz CD6003, Croft Micro25R + Series7R monoblocks (110W/ea), Harbeth SHL5 Plus 40th Anniv.

    System 3: Marantz CD6003, Croft SuperMicroII ('R' spec by Croft, Tesla E83CC in phono)+ Series7, Snell Type EII (with bypass caps, new internal wiring, WBT nextgen 0703Cu), Mark Grant HDX1, Atlas Hyper 3.0

  8. #8
    Join Date: May 2016

    Location: Gloucestershire

    Posts: 972
    I'm Ian.

    Default

    I've got one of these http://www.mingda.co.uk/audio-detail...ono-stage.html and I think it is quite excellent. Full of nuvistor valves with a separate linear power supply. Mark is also a real gent and supports his products.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: Cwmbran S.Wales

    Posts: 148
    I'm Gwyn.

    Default

    When did you change to that one Ian. Thought you were settled with the tiny box you had.
    I said "I'M A LITTLE DEAF"

  10. #10
    Join Date: Jun 2010

    Location: Liverpool, UK.

    Posts: 1,228
    I'm Geoff.

    Default

    There is no better solution, just follow your own ears.
    My favourite phono stage was the Leema Agena. It was expensive but sounded superb and was very adjustable. I compared it to a range of stages, including SUT and head amp offerings, as well as equivalent active competitors. It was the best solution to my ears.

    Now, however, I have a vintage integrated that includes a high quality phono stage. I prefer the overall sound I am achieving with the speakers I now use. As ever, listening is imperative.
    Main system: Sony TTS8000; AT1010; Audio Technica Art1; The Lentek; Cambridge 851n, Yamaha NS1000.
    System 2 - SBT; Technics SH-X1000 DAC; Denon PMA-850

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