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Thread: Denon DL-103R /Jelco 750 /Oyaide CF-HS set-up question

  1. #1
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 434
    I'm Nick.

    Default Denon DL-103R /Jelco 750 /Oyaide CF-HS set-up question

    I've been happily using my Denon DL-103R with a Sumiko headshell on my Technics 1210 for about a year, until recently I thought I'd give the Oyaide carbon-fibre headshell a try, having read that it's a good match with the DL-103 and Jelco 750.

    Having mounted the cart, it's obvious that the overall length of arm + headshell has been reduced. The mounting slots on the Oyaide are set much further back from the end of the headshell than on the Sumiko. If I mount the cart as far forward as possible, it still sits further back than it did on the Sumiko.

    Then when using my Avid protractor to set cartridge alignment, if I point the guide-line towards the Jelco spindle, the cart sits a good 2cm behind the null grid point on the protractor. Of course if I forget about the guide-line and rotate the protractor into position, I can line up the headshell and cart easily. But its my understanding that the guide-line should be pointed towards the spindle before setting alignment?

    So my question is, am I going to have a problem with this reduced arm length/cartridge position, in terms of sound and/or record wear?

    Can anyone with experience of setting up this particular combination of cart, arm and headshell please tell me how they did it, and set correct alignment? Perhaps Marco would be kind enough to weigh-in on this as I believe he has extensive experience in this area?

  2. #2
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickbaba View Post
    I've been happily using my Denon DL-103R with a Sumiko headshell on my Technics 1210 for about a year, until recently I thought I'd give the Oyaide carbon-fibre headshell a try, having read that it's a good match with the DL-103 and Jelco 750.

    Having mounted the cart, it's obvious that the overall length of arm + headshell has been reduced. The mounting slots on the Oyaide are set much further back from the end of the headshell than on the Sumiko. If I mount the cart as far forward as possible, it still sits further back than it did on the Sumiko.

    Then when using my Avid protractor to set cartridge alignment, if I point the guide-line towards the Jelco spindle, the cart sits a good 2cm behind the null grid point on the protractor. Of course if I forget about the guide-line and rotate the protractor into position, I can line up the headshell and cart easily. But its my understanding that the guide-line should be pointed towards the spindle before setting alignment?

    So my question is, am I going to have a problem with this reduced arm length/cartridge position, in terms of sound and/or record wear?

    Can anyone with experience of setting up this particular combination of cart, arm and headshell please tell me how they did it, and set correct alignment? Perhaps Marco would be kind enough to weigh-in on this as I believe he has extensive experience in this area?
    Hi Nick I'm not familiar with the Avid protractor but assuming the Jelco is at the correct spindle to pivot distance (as it would be for example if you were using one of the Ammonite bases) then all you have to worry about is the overhang ... I would get hold of one of these - it's intended for the Technics arm but the Jelco and the technics arm both have an overhang of 15mm so can be used on both:

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TECHNICS-...4AAOSw1uRZt77P

    The Headshell collet to stylus tip on a Technics deck at the correct spindle to pivot is 52mm and that's what this gives you. If the Oyade doesn't fit this then you have an issue.

    If you use the protractor method you are correct, the line between spindle and pivot is generally fixed. But you don't need that faff if you have the overhang gizmo.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 434
    I'm Nick.

    Default

    Thanks Tom - I have always assumed the arm is at the correct spindle/pivot distance... I got a Jelco-compatible armplate from Soundhifi back when the 750 was fitted (years ago now, I don't remember the specific make) and it was professionally set-up (not by me).
    I think I may have one of those overhang gizmos at the back of a drawer somewhere - I'll try and dig it out - you are right it would clarify my worry around correct cartridge length. Thanks for the tip.

  4. #4
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 434
    I'm Nick.

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    So... on a separate point, if overhang and arm distance are set correctly, just mounting the cart parallel to the headshell should produce correct tracking?

    I ask because I remember when I was using a Dynavector DV-20X in an ADC headshell, and setting it up with the Technics Baerwald arc protractor pdf (from vinylengine), in order to get it to track along the arc and hit every point on the way I had to set the cartridge offset in relation to the headshell, about 5 degrees off parallel if I recall.

    I never really know what others are doing with their cartridges, aligning them parallel to the headshell or offsetting them as necessary?

  5. #5
    montesquieu Guest

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    Yes good point. This is where you go back to the protractor. I generally secure my Dr Freickert one with a big lump of blu tac so neither it not platter can rotate once I have its position correct. A small amount of twist at headshell may be needed but I’d have thought 5 degrees about the maximum if the other aspects of setup are as they should be.

  6. #6
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Norwich

    Posts: 2,814
    I'm Hugo.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nickbaba View Post
    So... on a separate point, if overhang and arm distance are set correctly, just mounting the cart parallel to the headshell should produce correct tracking?

    I ask because I remember when I was using a Dynavector DV-20X in an ADC headshell, and setting it up with the Technics Baerwald arc protractor pdf (from vinylengine), in order to get it to track along the arc and hit every point on the way I had to set the cartridge offset in relation to the headshell, about 5 degrees off parallel if I recall.

    I never really know what others are doing with their cartridges, aligning them parallel to the headshell or offsetting them as necessary?
    This all depends on the chosen alignment geometry, and there really are no rights nor wrongs, as long as the cartridge is positioned and aligned correctly according to whatever geometry you have chosen, eg Baerwald/Loefgren A, Loefgren B, Stevenson, UNI-DIN; and we could complicate things further by taking into account inner and outer groove radii!

    Setting a cartridge straight in a headshell assumes that you know the arm maker's chosen geometry, which you may not, and I would much rather use a dedicated arc template (like Conrad Hoffman's) or a single point jig (Feickert or SMARTractor) to set up a cartridge than slavishly follow what the manufacturer selected in the original design. Unless you are using something fixed like an Ortofon SPU, slotted headshells usually give plenty of scope fro cartridge positioning and for exploring geometries better than Baerwald, eg Loefgren B. In the case of the Technics, I don't think that their arms are designed for Baerwald alignment, so that is why you ended up with a cartridge position that looked peculiar, but your end result would have been good anyway.

  7. #7
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 434
    I'm Nick.

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    Thanks for the info - on the vinylengine protractor page it does state "note that Technics arms do not use baerwald alignment as standard, so you may have to offset the cartridge in the headshell in order to align with arc."

  8. #8
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: West Yorkshire

    Posts: 1,796
    I'm Stephen.

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    I had pretty much the same setup as you a while back. With the DL103 and the Oyaide headshell (and others I’ve tried) in Jelco 750 and was unable to setup to Baerwald as you describe so I used the default Jelco null points without any issues.


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  9. #9
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 434
    I'm Nick.

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    Update: Using the Technics overhang gizmo, with the Denon 103 placed fully fwd in the Oyaide, the overhang looks exactly correct.

  10. #10
    Join Date: Sep 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 434
    I'm Nick.

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    Well...hmmm.
    I thought I was getting somewhere, but have now noticed that the Jelco arm has free movement around the pivot point..??
    What I mean is that the whole arm (eg the counter-weight, anti-skate, lifting lever etc) is all free-moving around the arm's pivot point. I never noticed this before - should it be doing that??
    I only noticed it because when the arm was at rest it was suddenly over the pitch slider, which it never was before... surely that can't be right - for a start it would throw off any meaningful set-up of stylus angle in relation to grove tracking...
    Any ideas whats causing that to happen? Something I could fix myself maybe?

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