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Thread: Naim Listing One CD Player - Sign Of The Times ?

  1. #41
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe View Post
    No. An analogy might be someone with no technical knowledge of cars test-driving two different models, and much preferring one over the other, then theorising as to the technical reasons for their preference, which might be completely wrong.
    Exactly. I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm entitled to theorise!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #42
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    We'll have to remember to discuss this further next time we meet up. Sorry for de-railing the thread everyone.
    No problem, mate. It's probably best something we discuss face to face

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  3. #43
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

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    I'm Russell.

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    I confess I was only speaking technically, or theoretically. I personally have done no such comparisons.

    But I was thinking back to all of the super high end CD player reviews I’ve read, and how John Atkins would do the technical reviews. And the way the CD player works, they spend a fortune on a super stable mechanism, with all manner of damping to reduce motor vibrations, and a huge motor to control RPM’s to the millionth of a rotation. And it was a challenge to time it all right so the bit stream was being retrieved at the speed needed to match the clock on the DAC. So, wobble in the axel, motor noise, and speed errors were creating jitter, and miss reads.

    As with a completely solid state playback, in theory, could be retrieved from a memory card, buffered and released at the exact clock speed for the DAC, (even a hard drive has a buffer solid state memory circuit, it’s not feeding straight from the disc), and if nothing else, you could get some super accurate data feed rates for the DAC clock. Plus, you’ve reached a superior level of data stream without all that expensive hardware.

    I’ve always questioned, why not feed the data from the CD into a buffer? And feed it to the DAC from there? And maybe some CD players do? But, all those from back when I used to read every word of those reviews, did not.

    I’ve often thought it would be best to build a player that used standard SD memory cards, eliminating a lot of the complications of playing back files from a computer, stored on hard drives, converted to a dozen codecs, and sent down USB or whatever cable? And they do make such decks! But they are more for use by radio stations, etc, not really intended for the high end market. They could even sell prerecorded SD cards, although the album covers would be tiny.

    And very true this doesn’t prove that solid state playback sounds better, it just solves several problems technically. And could possibly lower costs?

    Russell

  4. #44
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    Russell

  5. #45
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaGT View Post
    But I was thinking back to all of the super high end CD player reviews I’ve read, and how John Atkins would do the technical reviews. And the way the CD player works, they spend a fortune on a super stable mechanism, with all manner of damping to reduce motor vibrations, and a huge motor to control RPM’s to the millionth of a rotation. And it was a challenge to time it all right so the bit stream was being retrieved at the speed needed to match the clock on the DAC. So, wobble in the axel, motor noise, and speed errors were creating jitter, and miss reads.
    Oh NOoooooooooooooooo... Don't mention the 'J' word to Martin!!



    But yes, all of the stuff you've mentioned is precisely what I was thinking of, and quite simply, they wouldn't have needed to go to those lengths if there weren't genuine issues to address, and which streaming (or the Network recorders you've listed) rather neatly solves.

    Since this thread was originally about Naim CDPs, I remember when I was a big Naim user, back in the late 90s/early 2000s, and how Naim went to great lengths, installing manual top-loading mechanisms on their players (as automatic front-loading ones were thought to introduce vibration), with pucks to clamp CDs in place and leaf-spring suspensions (a la CDS/CDSII), to counter microphonics, as they knew (based on extensive R&D) that vibration was the enemy of high-quality CD replay, and so took steps to help address it.

    And the effects were not imagined, as I heard the difference that clearly made for myself, from having used various players in the Naim range, and it was only when the CDS was released, which had the aforementioned design features, that for me CD really 'matured' and sounded like a good turntable, but still with the undeniable sonic attributes of digital replay, making pretty much any other CDP it was compared with then sound compromised and a-musical.

    Plus, it wasn't just Naim who were doing that sort of thing, but if you were to open up my vintage Sony CDP, or Martin's, you'd see various steps having been taken to address the effects of vibration and isolate the CD itself from such. And that was back in the 80s! So it was recognised as a problem almost from day one. It's why metal transport mechs back then were used in the top CDPs, because they were less microphonic than plastic ones. I could go on...

    There were all sorts of steps taken to ensure that transport mechanisms could function at their maximum capability and read the information on discs as accurately as possible, none of which is necessary now with network players/file-based audio, and I'm convinced that's why I can hear the detrimental effect of the mechanical aspects of any CD player, when comparing it with the best streaming set ups.

    Can I prove it? No. It's simply what I believe is true, based on considerable experience.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #46
    Join Date: Feb 2014

    Location: Indianapolis, Indiana USA

    Posts: 779
    I'm Timothy.

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    Marco, the Naim players from that time were damn good weren't they, and would still be a wonderful thing to have. I owned the CDI for awhile, and then traded up to CDS, enjoyed many years with it. Probably some of the best gear to come out of Naim really as far as electronics go in my opinion.

    I also liked what you responded to Bev about, all the various mediums, whatever they may be, analog, digital, whatever, they all have their place and bring about the goods in one way or another. Indeed, why limit oneself if you can...
    Holbo TT-Nag 110-Croft phono/Innuos Zen MK2/LinnenberG Telemann DAC-Preamp/LinnenberG Allegro monoblocs/Duevel Venus/LinnenberG Maestro SE-Senn. 660S DH Labs cabling

    Croft Series 7 amps, WLM La Scala, Naim Uniti1, Naim Nait XS3, Naim ND5XS2, Guru Junior

  7. #47
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,736
    I'm Russell.

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    The question remains, if Naim is going to limit their line to a single player, why didn’t they keep their top of the line player?

    Perhaps this model is the best selling? Or meets a price point? Quite often corporate decisions don’t rely on logic?

    Russell

  8. #48
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,779
    I'm Martin.

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    Might be that is the only one they are confident that they can still get the parts for? Most of them will be bought in from the far east as with all CD players from UK manufacturers.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #49
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Might be that is the only one they are confident that they can still get the parts for?
    Maybe that Naim have the good sense to avoid using slot loading mechs in their players. They really are a bag of shite.
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  10. #50
    Join Date: Jul 2009

    Location: Hampshire, UK

    Posts: 3,662
    I'm Adam.

    Default Naim Listing One CD Player - Sign Of The Times ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    And the moral of that story is?

    Marco.
    I've absolutely no idea!

    FWIW, though, not only did I think the CD sounded best in those demos, I think I've only heard one streaming setup that really captivated me (ironically, given how this thread started - it was a Naim streamer.). Other than that, streaming always sounds technically very precise but very sterile and soulless. As someone once said to me about a certain item of hi-fi equipment which shall remain nameless - "It's like it takes the music and then magically manages to remove all the music from it".

    I am obviously set up for streaming, for reviewing purposes, but other than that I never use it as I can discern no advantage in sound quality terms and it's such a bloody faff. Sticking a CD or LP (or cassette...) on, or cueing up something from Spotify is a damn sight easier.

    Dragging the thread back to its start, I'm gutted that the Naim CD-555 is no more. I always loved that thing - not only for the sound (I still maintain it's the best CD player I have heard to date) but mainly for the utterly delightful loading lid action!
    Last edited by Beobloke; 02-07-2018 at 14:23.
    Engineers: fixing problems you didn't know you had in ways you don't understand.

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