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Thread: DSP active crossover

  1. #11
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,122
    I'm Russell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    Thanks Russell

    Certainly not a mile away, it is precisely what I'm trying to achieve. The big difference in my plan is it is just for fun but primarily I will be doing it on the cheap. Essentially I will take a USB feed from a computer and go into a cheap multi-channel DAC (stuff they use everyday in gaming rigs) and from there to a multi-channel amp. From there I will take 3 stereo pairs and drive the 3-way drivers in Goodmans Magnum K2s. Within the computer there will be a digital cross-over such that the feed to the DAC will have 3 stereo pairs. That is the first step.

    As a second step, assuming the first step is fine, I will do room correction via REW (as per your link) and a mic. As I understand it REW will create a FIR filter which I can inject into my software.

    Looking at my costs (I consider the computer, software, multi-channel amp, cabling and speakers free as I already have them) the biggest cost will actually be the banana plugs, binding posts and DAC. That should be about £100 - so a cheap(ish) experiment. Not sure what I will do with it all once I have done it as my main system are more than adequate.
    So, if youíve got the multi channel amp, and a computer, thatís a major head start!

    You could get by cheaper with my scenario by buying a Behringer digital crossover, used. And a calibration mic, you may even find one used? But Iíve seen new ones for $35. And as I was searching for the software, like the one I referred to, I see a lot of versions that were free for download. How much they will do? I guess youíd have to try a few. So, a used Behringer digital crossover may not be more than $100? These digital DSPís have 24bit processing and run exceedingly quiet. The DBX brand is more feature rich, but one of the articles I read about used the Behringer with great success.

    But you sound like youíve got a handle on it! I was not aware that there were DACís that you could control with a computer to create crossover points? It sounds very interesting!

    Of course, you will have to keep us updated as you go, with photos and listening impressions. To educate the masses!

    Russ


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  2. #12
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 812
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaGT View Post
    So, if you’ve got the multi channel amp, and a computer, that’s a major head start!

    You could get by cheaper with my scenario by buying a Behringer digital crossover, used. And a calibration mic, you may even find one used? But I’ve seen new ones for $35. And as I was searching for the software, like the one I referred to, I see a lot of versions that were free for download. How much they will do? I guess you’d have to try a few. So, a used Behringer digital crossover may not be more than $100? These digital DSP’s have 24bit processing and run exceedingly quiet. The DBX brand is more feature rich, but one of the articles I read about used the Behringer with great success.

    But you sound like you’ve got a handle on it! I was not aware that there were DAC’s that you could control with a computer to create crossover points? It sounds very interesting!

    Of course, you will have to keep us updated as you go, with photos and listening impressions. To educate the masses!

    Russ


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Oh I'm just part of the masses Russell, learning as I go along. Mostly making mistakes.

    Speaking of Behringers a mate has one to semi-actively drive his speakers. In his case he is driving the bass of his XTZ Divine Alphas (costing thousands) with a cheap Beheringer. So what with the addition of another stereo amp and tuning of the xover point the bass has vastly improved. In fact it is this improvement that is part of what inspires me to try things out - but in my case focusing on lower end stuff and full digital xovers.

    Got to pull the trigger on the remaining bits of pieces. Just deciding if I go with spades or bananas. Probably just bare wire and cable couplings for now.
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  3. #13
    Join Date: Apr 2016

    Location: souf east for work

    Posts: 955
    I'm paul.

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    I had one of the early deqx units pdc 2.6, bought it ex demo £600 and sold it later for £700, a rare occasion where I didn't lose money. Great bit of kit. I now use Najda dsp, bought for future projects but used in my office set up as a Dac, very good Dac it has too.

    I have some behringer analogue crossovers you could try, one is a 3 way the other a 2 way. I used them early on in my horn build. Easy to use, just twiddle the knobs to the desired crossover point.
    Sony STR 6055 Denon DP80 Stax UA-70 Shure Ultra 500 Zu omen

    Office system, DIY CSS fullrange speakers with aurum cantus G2 ribbons Najda dsp as dac Akai AM-U02 Jvc QL-A51 direct drive turntable
    SAE1000LT leema sub. JVC Z4S cart is in the house

    Garage system another Sony receiver, cassette deck and full range drivers in free air


    System components are subject to change without warning and at the discretion of the owner.

  4. #14
    Join Date: Apr 2015

    Location: Central Virginia

    Posts: 1,122
    I'm Russell.

    Default DSP active crossover

    Youíve got me curious to try one of these software packages. Iím not planning any digital crossovers, but I just want to see what the sound looks like at my listening position. Get me a cheap calibration mic with USB, and download a free app, and perhaps help me get the speakers into the best position? I donít have a lot of leeway, but some, Iíve pulled them way out into the room recently, they are majorly in the way but sound much better. The woofer in the rear really creates tons of bass in the room and it gets hard to tame. Perhaps some sound treatments behind the speaker would help?

    Anyway, I find your project most interesting and would love to hear how it goes, and what you learn as you go along.

    Russell

  5. #15
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 812
    I'm Edward.

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    I've stalled a bit as other things like work has got in the way. Also when firing up the AV receiver (a Sony) I found one channel is down. So I need to get another 7.1 AVR but they are cheap as chips when bought used . Just have to ensure the 7.1 channels are accessible via RCA inputs rather than just HDMI which many newer AVRs have. Got my eye on several in eBay. HDMI alone may work but, judging from other forums, there may be an issue with needing an attached video - which in my implementation I don't want/need.

    I feel confident that it will all work out - based on many other people doing the same via JRiver in particular.

    But turning to your situation I'm not clear if active dsp crossovers alone will cure your bass issues. Physical room treatment (bass traps, speaker placement etc) will I'm sure go some way and probably digital room correction (via creation of a filter after mic measurement) will also have some improvement. As mentioned all I'm seeking to do at this stage is create a 3-way active digital crossover. Later on I may create a room correcting filter with a mic and REW).
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  6. #16
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 812
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulf-2007 View Post
    I had one of the early deqx units pdc 2.6, bought it ex demo £600 and sold it later for £700, a rare occasion where I didn't lose money. Great bit of kit. I now use Najda dsp, bought for future projects but used in my office set up as a Dac, very good Dac it has too.

    I have some behringer analogue crossovers you could try, one is a 3 way the other a 2 way. I used them early on in my horn build. Easy to use, just twiddle the knobs to the desired crossover point.

    Hi Paul, that is very generous of you. This may also be very interesting indeed. I'm inclined to try the full digital idea as a priority but perhaps I can try the Behringer's as well. After all I will have sufficient multi amp channels so it would be simply taking the computer and DAC offline and rerouting as required. What model Behringers are they and whereabouts are you? Feel free to use PM.

    I have a friend who uses Behringer's in a semi active form (I think I mentioned this in this thread already) to great effect.
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  7. #17
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,154
    I'm Steve.

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    Interesting using JRiver to do the X/O stuff.
    Had that existed / been on my horizon 5 years ago I'd have been interested in it.

    The Berhringer DEQ 24/96 is in my opinion not sufficiently Hifi.
    I tried them even modded.
    They would work on bass frequency duty though.

    I use a WAF Najda DSP X/O in my 5 way horn system.
    The flexibility and SQ are amazing.
    There's a wealth of info on Diyaudio. The part 1 thread is all about the Reqs, part 2 is about the creation, manufacture and folk using this very high quality solution. They even do a complete turn key option now too.

    Several of us HQ multi way horn addicts use them to stunning affect.

    I use room correction on my tapped horn subs only (18Hz to 90Hz) and 4th order X/O. I've tried 8th order but it's a bit too constrained somehow..
    Without DSP room correction you would not want to listen to it with it the results are stunning.

    Going active with Tannoys with a big PP or Silicon amp on bass and a sweet SET on the treble is the way to go. L-pads, Zobels etc sap clarity and dynamics terribly.

    Be interesting to see how you get on.
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Digital CD spinner, Serious USB->I2S streaming, ADC / DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of counterweights, tonearm boards, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

  8. #18
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,514
    I'm Ken.

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    I have heard several hardware solutions from miniDSP and own the Hypex DLCP.

    They are all pretty good with digital sources, but the ADC on any of these is not up to the standard required for vinyl reproduction.

    If I was going Digital Active (I am Analogue Active now) I would go the software route on a PC. Waiting on delivery (this morning) of the power amps for my set up.

    Halfwaytree of this parish uses JRiver and "Accurate" for the filter/room correction, in his superb sounding Linkwitz LX521 set up, try dropping him a PM.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nord MC500 Power Amps/ Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

  9. #19
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 812
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magna Audio View Post

    Going active with Tannoys with a big PP or Silicon amp on bass and a sweet SET on the treble is the way to go. L-pads, Zobels etc sap clarity and dynamics terribly.
    Thanks Steve. For simplicity and 'proof of concept' just planning on using an AV amp for its multi-channel audio amps and one volume control for all channels. But certainly the idea of using PP for the bass and SET for the highs is very attractive. The amps in an AV unit I suspect are not really high end. Probably cheap class D boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qwin View Post
    I have heard several hardware solutions from miniDSP and own the Hypex DLCP.

    They are all pretty good with digital sources, but the ADC on any of these is not up to the standard required for vinyl reproduction.

    If I was going Digital Active (I am Analogue Active now) I would go the software route on a PC. Waiting on delivery (this morning) of the power amps for my set up.

    Halfwaytree of this parish uses JRiver and "Accurate" for the filter/room correction, in his superb sounding Linkwitz LX521 set up, try dropping him a PM.
    Thanks Ken.

    On the vinyl side of things have you considered using a pro ADC? Something like that RME does. Their ADI-2 Pro will sample at 192/24 with, I understand, great results. But I'm sure most people with great vinyl rigs will want to stay in the analog domain from the black circle all the way to the speakers. Purism rules ok!

    Between other things I've been mucking around with JRiver Parametric EQ and trying to get my head around stuff like Linkwitz Transforms and the like. All very interesting.

    Still waiting for an AV amp to come up. I may, assuming I get to grips with the parametric eq soon, just go for a 2 way stereo idea using a different (sacrificial) speaker and the existing AV amp I have.

    Thanks for the tip on Halfwaytree (Gordon) - I may well drop him a message.

    What power amps you getting?
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  10. #20
    Join Date: Jan 2013

    Location: Durham - UK

    Posts: 1,514
    I'm Ken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    Thanks Steve. For simplicity and 'proof of concept' just planning on using an AV amp for its multi-channel audio amps and one volume control for all channels. But certainly the idea of using PP for the bass and SET for the highs is very attractive. The amps in an AV unit I suspect are not really high end. Probably cheap class D boards.



    Thanks Ken.

    On the vinyl side of things have you considered using a pro ADC? Something like that RME does. Their ADI-2 Pro will sample at 192/24 with, I understand, great results. But I'm sure most people with great vinyl rigs will want to stay in the analog domain from the black circle all the way to the speakers. Purism rules ok!

    Between other things I've been mucking around with JRiver Parametric EQ and trying to get my head around stuff like Linkwitz Transforms and the like. All very interesting.

    Still waiting for an AV amp to come up. I may, assuming I get to grips with the parametric eq soon, just go for a 2 way stereo idea using a different (sacrificial) speaker and the existing AV amp I have.

    Thanks for the tip on Halfwaytree (Gordon) - I may well drop him a message.

    What power amps you getting?
    I considered getting the Burl Audio B2 Bomber ADC which plenty of producers swear by for an "Analogue sound", the cost of the overall set up including 6 channels of power amp was getting a bit much though.

    I decided to stick with an Analogue active solution, from which I was getting good results with my vinyl set up. This was using a two way active crossover (Rod Elliott's boards) to cross at 500Hz and feed the <500hz direct to the bass via amps and the >500 to the amps then to a passive cross over further splitting at 6kHz for mid/tweeter. So the mid still only sees 500Hz to 6kHz. This semi active set up works great and avoids a big bank of caps which were in series with the mid driver in the original passive crossover. My op-amp choice in the active crossover tames the previously forward treble (Yam NS1000M) and by using an alternative 12" Scanspeak bass driver I have taken the bass f3 point from 52Hz to about 29Hz. It doesn't start to roll off till 35Hz and in a similar sized closed box to the NS1000m, both were measured in my room, which does give some bass lift.

    I also considered a Linkwitz transform and Rod Elliott produces a board to achieve this, Rod steered me clear, his crossover is phase coherent and adding a transform circuit would alter the phase. So unless I wanted to get into sorting that can of worms, he suggested I leave it out. If your doing it in the digital domain, then things may well be different.

    I'm getting a pair of Nord One UP NC500DM (Dual Mono) so 4 Channels of amplification.
    These use the Hypex NC500 modules providing 700w each channel for my two 4ohm woofers and 400w each channel shared between a 8ohm Mid/Twtr. It's the model with their own discrete input buffer and regulators which is supposed to give an improvement over the stock Hypex input which uses a chip op-amp.

    I have a Nakamichi 7 channel Amp 110w/channel I may be moving on, its an absolute cracker. I promised someone first refusal if I ever sold it, so it would depend on whether he is still interested. It weighs 32kg, the pair of Nord class D weigh 18kg and take up less space, which is the only reason I am replacing the Nakamichi. I'll let you know if it's available.

    4 O'clock and no sign of UPS yet

    Five past four, they arrived
    Last edited by Qwin; 27-06-2018 at 15:08.
    Ken

    http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/
    DIY Technics/ProJect based Turntable + Terminator linear tracker + AT 33PTG II / AQVOX Phono 2 CI / Pro-Ject Pre Box RS / ESP Active X-Over / Nord MC500 Power Amps/ Modified semi-active Yamaha NS1000M Speakers / Stello CDT100 Transport / NAD M51 DAC.

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