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Thread: DSP active crossover

  1. #71
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,852
    I'm Steve.

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    I've always found room eq below 100Hz or so it's fine. Above that with my horns there's no eq needed.

    If you can measure the real room responses. Won't look quite like your roon schematic
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Streaming RPi/Kali reclocker -> I2S -> DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, 5 Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of tonearm boards, armpods, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers, counterweights and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

  2. #72
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,014
    I'm Edward.

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    Steve

    I have a wanted post in exhibitions for a minidsp mic as I read that REW suggests only this mic for measuring stuff. However is this true, perhaps you could suggest an alternative mic etc to create a room correction filter?

    §
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  3. #73
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: London

    Posts: 685
    I'm James.

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    For the price I'd just buy one, it's a tool you will use A LOT, in fact the minidsp is verge pointless without it and it is programmed to work seamlessly with this mic.

    There are alternative eg. behringer mics but you'll have to faff about with loading calibration files. IIRC umics cost no more anyway, and they have different field responses: the umic is semi-omnidirectional for room correction, the behringers are directional for driver analysis, so the minidsp help files will have to be interpreted accordingly to deliver what the program and mic can offer. Horses for courses.

    I personally find the phase relationships between drivers are better tuned by ear to real music. I have not come across a silver bullet for driver integration with crossovers, even in the digi domain, Speaker voicing still remains an art rather than a science IMHO, YMMV, etc.

    Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

  4. #74
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,852
    I'm Steve.

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    Agree with all of that.
    Mic is a tool to get you near. Tune by ear.

    Moving my gear from one room to another, I tuned the new room's bass responses to give me the same wow factor I heard / felt in the new room..
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazid View Post
    For the price I'd just buy one, it's a tool you will use A LOT, in fact the minidsp is verge pointless without it and it is programmed to work seamlessly with this mic.

    There are alternative eg. behringer mics but you'll have to faff about with loading calibration files. IIRC umics cost no more anyway, and they have different field responses: the umic is semi-omnidirectional for room correction, the behringers are directional for driver analysis, so the minidsp help files will have to be interpreted accordingly to deliver what the program and mic can offer. Horses for courses.

    I personally find the phase relationships between drivers are better tuned by ear to real music. I have not come across a silver bullet for driver integration with crossovers, even in the digi domain, Speaker voicing still remains an art rather than a science IMHO, YMMV, etc.

    Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Streaming RPi/Kali reclocker -> I2S -> DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, 5 Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of tonearm boards, armpods, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers, counterweights and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

  5. #75
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,014
    I'm Edward.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazid View Post
    For the price I'd just buy one, it's a tool you will use A LOT, in fact the minidsp is verge pointless without it and it is programmed to work seamlessly with this mic.

    There are alternative eg. behringer mics but you'll have to faff about with loading calibration files. IIRC umics cost no more anyway, and they have different field responses: the umic is semi-omnidirectional for room correction, the behringers are directional for driver analysis, so the minidsp help files will have to be interpreted accordingly to deliver what the program and mic can offer. Horses for courses.

    I personally find the phase relationships between drivers are better tuned by ear to real music. I have not come across a silver bullet for driver integration with crossovers, even in the digi domain, Speaker voicing still remains an art rather than a science IMHO, YMMV, etc.

    Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk

    Cheers James. I'll wait a short while to see if anyone has a minidsp mic and if not get one from HK. Other than the minidsp mic I'm not planning on using other minidsp products for now.
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  6. #76
    Join Date: Sep 2011

    Location: County Durham, UK

    Posts: 150
    I'm Gordon.

    Default

    Great to see that you've moved forward with this Edward - great stuff.

    Once again, lots of sage advice from others who have travelled down this road. Making DSP corrections in the lower frequencies (under about 200Hz - essentially the transition frequency of your room) is good advice.

    The MinisDSP Umik mic (I have one and they are available from Amazon) is the best and easiest way to get decent measurements using REW. However, if you want to get into some of the more advanced room correction using something like Acourate, for example, the Umik is unfortunately not the best choice and something like the Behringer ECM8000 (I have one these also) is better suited. Ideally the ECM8000 should be calibrated, but it's not a must as you are dealing with relative measurements, not absolutes. You'll also need a mic pre-amp unless your interface has one. I bought an inexpensive used Alice Mik Pak which does the job fine.

    Acourate is not cheap, is complex, doesn't have a particularly easy interface, but is very powerful and flexible. If you are thinking of going down that route I would highly recommend Accurate Sound Reproduction Using DSP by Mitch Barnett - the Kindle version is less than £7 - it's a good walkthrough using Acourate and highly informatiive about driver phase relationships, even if you never intend to purchase Acourate. BTW, correction files created with Acourate can be used in both JRiver and Roon.

    I've been using Acourate for about 3 years now and I still find myself experimenting with it. It can make some music sound very, very good - especially vocals, but sometimes it can sound a little too laid back IMO if I want to listen to some loud compressed rock. But it only takes 2 mouse clicks to switch it in or out in JRiver so easy to do a comparison on the fly.

  7. #77
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,014
    I'm Edward.

    Default

    Gordon

    Many thanks indeed for the most comprehensive post and all the highly useful tips. One thing I have to guard against is running before I can walk. I'm already imagining (after winning the lottery that is ) of building myself a studio room optimised for sound, getting customised class a amps (3 stereo pairs or more) and building a 3 way (or more) speaker system using world-class drivers all driven by an Acourate optimised DSP setup. Then sitting back and enjoying the music.

    For now I need to just play around with the free speakers I have (actually I think they cost me £20!), the cheap gaming dac (which has mic input), the AVR and a spare computer lying around. Actually quite pleased with the steps taken so far. I'm now using Roon instead of JRiver to do the crossovers - generally much easier.

    Still buying lottery tickets though!

    Thanks for the tip on the Behringer ECM8000 mics. Will investigate further but certainly they are cheaper and more easily available than the UMIK mic.

    I've been reading this article and (embarrassingly) understand about 80% of it - well the concepts behind it that is. Is this the same author that you mention? I have free kindle via Amazon Prime so will download in a short while and have a read.

    cheers
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  8. #78
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,852
    I'm Steve.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    Gordon

    Many thanks indeed for the most comprehensive post and all the highly useful tips. One thing I have to guard against is running before I can walk. I'm already imagining (after winning the lottery that is ) of building myself a studio room optimised for sound, getting customised class a amps (3 stereo pairs or more) and building a 3 way (or more) speaker system using world-class drivers all driven by an Acourate optimised DSP setup. Then sitting back and enjoying the music.

    For now I need to just play around with the free speakers I have (actually I think they cost me £20!), the cheap gaming dac (which has mic input), the AVR and a spare computer lying around. Actually quite pleased with the steps taken so far. I'm now using Roon instead of JRiver to do the crossovers - generally much easier.

    Still buying lottery tickets though!

    Thanks for the tip on the Behringer ECM8000 mics. Will investigate further but certainly they are cheaper and more easily available than the UMIK mic.

    I've been reading this article and (embarrassingly) understand about 80% of it - well the concepts behind it that is. Is this the same author that you mention? I have free kindle via Amazon Prime so will download in a short while and have a read.

    cheers
    That's a very good looking article for anyone considering DSP X/O's.
    I only skimmed it but the time alignment result evaluation is spot on.
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Streaming RPi/Kali reclocker -> I2S -> DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, 5 Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of tonearm boards, armpods, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers, counterweights and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

  9. #79
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: West Sūžsēaxe

    Posts: 2,014
    I'm Edward.

    Default

    It's amazing how small DSP changes can dramatically change the sound. Managed to grab some time (as well as unplug the main speakers as I'm using the same stands).

    Couple of small changes and the sound suddenly gains focus and comes forward. The small changes were a delay of 8ms on the HF and delay of 5ms on the MF. Also +2db on the MF and HF.

    Easy to get confused on channel mapping though. At one point I had one of the left channels mapping to the right. Very muddled sound.

    Lots of more experimenting to do ...
    Current: [P20] Roon/Tidal > Custom PC> Chevron Paradox NDF16 > Phast Pre > Neuro. 686 > Tannoy Berkley (RFC tweaks)


  10. #80
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,852
    I'm Steve.

    Default

    Have you tried time aligning left and right channels as well?
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Streaming RPi/Kali reclocker -> I2S -> DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, 5 Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of tonearm boards, armpods, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers, counterweights and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

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