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Thread: DSP active crossover

  1. #41
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 815
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magna Audio View Post
    Won't comment on the Jriver side of things not used it as X/O, do try lower than 4 order though.
    I've found 4th order okay on sub horns and mid bass but further up the frequencies it kills feeling / mood - very driver dependant I guess. If they are good quality you want to let the loveliness play on a bit.
    Thanks Steve. This is precisely why I'm attracted to try active dsp, the ability of being able to adjust things easily and immediately hear the differences. In addition to trying different slopes I will be trying out different crossover points starting at what the passive crossovers are.

    Room correction will add another dimension.

    My fear is that this will all become too good leading me to having to get high end and expensive multichannel amps such as what Ken is currently doing.

    At a recent show I went to there were some 3 way Kudos Titan speakers being actively driven with multiple Linn amps. Shockingly good.

    But I dare say not as good as your Tannoy GRF recipes. When I win the lottery I will be over to you and Paul's (RFC) to discuss a bespoke Tannoy system. Until then I will have to slum it with the Eatons.
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  2. #42
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,154
    I'm Steve.

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    Hehe, you haven't heard my 5 way system yet
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Digital CD spinner, Serious USB->I2S streaming, ADC / DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of counterweights, tonearm boards, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

  3. #43
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 815
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magna Audio View Post
    Hehe, you haven't heard my 5 way system yet

    No indeed I have not heard them but I have heard of people who have heard your 5-way horn system. (there I got 'heard' in 3 times ).

    Did dip into your WAM thread and could only dream of having your skills - particularly your woodworking skills.

    What are the dimensions of the room you have your 5-way system is btw?
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  4. #44
    Join Date: Mar 2009

    Location: The New Forest

    Posts: 1,154
    I'm Steve.

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    It's a loft room.
    5m wide and longer than needed.
    I sit about 3.5m away.

    They've come on a lot since the Wam thread

    DSP is great for that flexibility. So easy to try different settings and if you change driver impedance no problems
    System: Turntable : SP10 MKII slate plinth, Custom Ebony tonearm board, Arm : Fidelity Research FR64s, Cartridge : SPU Royal N. SUT : Lundahl 1:13. Phonostage : Icon Audio, Digital CD spinner, Serious USB->I2S streaming, ADC / DSP XO / Pre / 4 DAC's : WAF Najda, Poweramps : 3 x EL84 SET's, 2 x D class amps on bass channels, Speakers : 5 way front loaded horn system: 2 X Tapped sub 15" LF drivers / 2 X Exponential mid bass 15" drivers / Tractrix 200Hz mid horns with JBL2482's, / Tractrix 550Hz upper wooden horns with factory refurb'd Vitavox S2's / Raal Lazy Ribbons as high frequency tweeters. Wires: good silver or good copper where best suited. DIY RCM.

    Maker of counterweights, tonearm boards, Tannoy GRF style speaker cabinets, horn speakers and more.
    For more information about my creations and products please click below

    http://fosworld.wixsite.com/magna-audio & on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/magna_audio/

  5. #45
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 815
    I'm Edward.

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    My wife and friends keep bugging me to convert a dead space I have. If I did the space would be about 6.4m by 3.1m with 2.3m height. Seems ideal ...
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  6. #46
    Join Date: Sep 2011

    Location: County Durham, UK

    Posts: 91
    I'm Gordon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    Hi Gordon

    Appreciate if you could have a look at the following screenshots and let me know if I have got it right.

    My plan is to have the normal L/R channels mapped to the bass drivers, the surround L/R channels mapped to the midrangers and the Rear L/R mapped to the tweeters. I have used the passive crossover points of 800hz and 5,000hz. Will start with a 4th order (24db) slope. Once I plug things in I can adjust from this baseline.

    What I'm not clear about at this stage is what negative or positive gain I need to apply to each channel to start with? Or will I just derive this by trial and error later on? What did you do?

    Cheers


    Output Format



    Copy Channels



    High Pass Filter




    Low Pass Filter

    Sorry about the late response - been busy with watching footie too, plus my son is on a charity trip to Peru - he spent the evening in a bar in Lima airport watching the England/Colombia game - in a bar full of Colombian's everyone very friendly so no problems... he's finally got to his destination up in the mountains safely, so all is good.

    Anyway, looking at your screenshots my first question is regarding your output format - is there a reason you are using 2 channels in a 7.1 container rather than using 5.1 channels as you have 3-way speakers?

    The x-overs look fine, although I would have routed Left,Right for bass, Centre,Sub for mids and SL, SR for highs. However if what you have setup works for your routing it doesn't really matter. Like Steve (Magna Audio) I wouldn't recomment a 24db/oct Butterworth either. But I would use a 24db/oct Linkwitz-Riley which sums flat. JRiver can't do Linkwitz-Riley filters natively, but as they are just cascaded Butterworths all you need to do is create two 12db/oct Butterworths and you have your 24db/oct Linkwitz-Riley.

    If you know the driver sensitivities then I would just take a rough guess at setting the most sensitive ones down a few db.

    I may have missed it in your earlier posts but what DAC are you using to get the signal from JRiver to your amps?

    Hope this helps.

  7. #47
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 815
    I'm Edward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway Tree View Post
    Sorry about the late response - been busy with watching footie too, plus my son is on a charity trip to Peru - he spent the evening in a bar in Lima airport watching the England/Colombia game - in a bar full of Colombian's everyone very friendly so no problems... he's finally got to his destination up in the mountains safely, so all is good.
    Ah yes I know Lima and Cusco well. We went there about 3 years ago to visit our daughter who was spending 6 months there. Very friendly people and great food (not the guinea pig though!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway Tree View Post
    Anyway, looking at your screenshots my first question is regarding your output format - is there a reason you are using 2 channels in a 7.1 container rather than using 5.1 channels as you have 3-way speakers?
    Just going with JRiver's recommendation. Don't want anyway to get confused with the sub (as per in x.1) so aiming to just use 6 of the normal 7 channels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway Tree View Post
    The x-overs look fine, although I would have routed Left,Right for bass, Centre,Sub for mids and SL, SR for highs. However if what you have setup works for your routing it doesn't really matter. Like Steve (Magna Audio) I wouldn't recomment a 24db/oct Butterworth either. But I would use a 24db/oct Linkwitz-Riley which sums flat. JRiver can't do Linkwitz-Riley filters natively, but as they are just cascaded Butterworths all you need to do is create two 12db/oct Butterworths and you have your 24db/oct Linkwitz-Riley.
    Any particular reason you would route things in that way? My rationale is just to skip centre and sub due to them not being L or R. And anyway surely the sub on an AVR is pure line level without ability for filtering, attenuation etc? Naturally I will have to actually map what I've set in JRiver to the actual channels on the amp.

    How do I cascade the Butterworths by creating another filter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway Tree View Post
    If you know the driver sensitivities then I would just take a rough guess at setting the most sensitive ones down a few db.
    I'll give the tweeter -4db, mid -2db and go from there. I imagine that later on when/if I do a room correction filter then that filter will adjust things appropriately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway Tree View Post
    I may have missed it in your earlier posts but what DAC are you using to get the signal from JRiver to your amps?
    To start with I will be using a Xonar 7.1 dac. Not the state of the art, but remember this is just a 'proof of concept' project.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halfway Tree View Post
    Hope this helps.
    Yes it really does Gordon and I very much appreciate your time/help.

    The AVR amp was meant to arrive today but no sign of it. I hate having to wait around or depend on neighbours.
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


  8. #48
    Join Date: Sep 2011

    Location: County Durham, UK

    Posts: 91
    I'm Gordon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    Ah yes I know Lima and Cusco well. We went there about 3 years ago to visit our daughter who was spending 6 months there. Very friendly people and great food (not the guinea pig though!)



    Just going with JRiver's recommendation. Don't want anyway to get confused with the sub (as per in x.1) so aiming to just use 6 of the normal 7 channels.



    Any particular reason you would route things in that way? My rationale is just to skip centre and sub due to them not being L or R. And anyway surely the sub on an AVR is pure line level without ability for filtering, attenuation etc? Naturally I will have to actually map what I've set in JRiver to the actual channels on the amp.

    How do I cascade the Butterworths by creating another filter?



    I'll give the tweeter -4db, mid -2db and go from there. I imagine that later on when/if I do a room correction filter then that filter will adjust things appropriately.



    To start with I will be using a Xonar 7.1 dac. Not the state of the art, but remember this is just a 'proof of concept' project.



    Yes it really does Gordon and I very much appreciate your time/help.

    The AVR amp was meant to arrive today but no sign of it. I hate having to wait around or depend on neighbours.
    Just been looking at the Xonar 7.1 Dac - it seems to have 5 analogue outputs - Front L, Front R, Side, Centre and Rear - I'm probably missing something here, but how do you get the 6 channels you need out of it?

    I'll grab a screenshot of Linkwitz-Riley crossover in JRiver.

  9. #49
    Join Date: Sep 2011

    Location: County Durham, UK

    Posts: 91
    I'm Gordon.

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    Here's a screenshot of a 120Hz L-R 4th order (24db/oct) using cascaded Butterworth's in JRiver. The 12Hz high pass which is also a L-R 4th order is simply there to provide some protection for the bass drivers. You can create a L-R 2nd order simply by cascading two 6db/oct Butterworth filters. I use a 2nd order in my Linkwitz LX521s between the lower and upper mid drivers.

    lrxover.jpg

  10. #50
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: London N2

    Posts: 815
    I'm Edward.

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    Cheers Gordon

    I think I see the logic of how you cascaded things. Thanks.

    The Xonar outputs of Side and Rear are 3.5mm stereo pairs so with the FR and FL plus mono CTR you get to 7 channels.

    AVR arrived. Yet to check operation. Huge transformers so quite weighty.

    Next thing to do is to break the rear seals on the speakers and then rewire to 6 speaker posts (3 x 2) each speaker. I was thinking of having 8 posts each speaker with a suitable switch so I can readily go from active to passive. May do that later on. I'll leave the passive crossovers in-situ for now.
    Source: Tidal/Roon
    DAC: Metrum HEX NOS

    Amp: Sugden Masterclass 2018 spec, Radford Revival STA25,
    Speakers:, Tannoy Eaton


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