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Thread: Early Philips and Marantz CDPs

  1. #21
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Those old Naims are like paint strippers unless you've got a nice, compressed, rolled off source like a TT or a tape deck, then they sound excellent. Is it any wonder that when people stuck a source that was flat to 22Khz into those systems that they didn't like what they heard?

    But they assume that the amps and speakers are blameless and decide it is this new fangled digital that is the problem. After all, the tapes and vinyl sound fine.

    Then 20 odd years on when they have a completely different system they try digital again and low and behold it sounds much better! And then they ascribe that to it being 'hi rez' or 'better masters' or 'digital tech improving massively' (which it hasn't. It has barely changed at all because it worked fine from the get-go).

    So much bollocks has been made up all due to this one simple misunderstanding decades ago. My favourite is that the early transfers to cd were 'botched' because the labels didn't know what they were doing, and that is what the problem was with early digital.

    Yes, because cuing up an RTR and connecting it to a ADC is like rocket science even for an experienced studio engineer. Added to which anyone into cd always goes for the earlier releases and not the re-masters because they sound better due to their increased dynamic range! It's the later releases you (usually) want to avoid.

    Pretty much any explanation is seized on except the true one, which is that those flat earth systems were effects boxes, not hi-fi.
    I agree that Naim stuff of that era sounded awful especially used with Isobariks and the likes. That's why I never owned any (sticking with Japanese gear which - by contrast - was actually a bit of a snooze-fest by comparison). How do you explain people like me who still didn't like the new digital?

    And not all LP12s were sleepy, I used an AT OC9 for donkey's years which had (and has) quite an aggressive treble lift. Not that I knew that at the time, I was more interested in buying records at the time than in reading hifi magazines which were just as full of utter crap then as they are now (albeit we got more measurements rather than endless pointless descriptions of what albums sound like).

  2. #22
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

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    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    anyone into cd always goes for the earlier releases and not the re-masters because they sound better due to their increased dynamic range! It's the later releases you (usually) want to avoid.
    Don't know about that, imho, the early attempts at the Blue Note stables digital transfers were terrible. I'm not a great fan of remastered transfers and polished beyond recognition, but those early CD reissues were poor.
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  3. #23
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    I agree that Naim stuff of that era sounded awful especially used with Isobariks and the likes. That's why I never owned any (sticking with Japanese gear which - by contrast - was actually a bit of a snooze-fest by comparison). How do you explain people like me who still didn't like the new digital?

    ).
    Don't conflate not liking it with harsh and fatiguing? Unless that is still the reason you don't like it? In which case further investigation is required. Digital is never going to sound like vinyl so a preference for vinyl is always going to be just that.

    And there is no 'new digital', it isn't any different from what it was in 1983. That's the whole point of my argument.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WESTLOWER View Post
    Don't know about that, imho, the early attempts at the Blue Note stables digital transfers were terrible. I'm not a great fan of remastered transfers and polished beyond recognition, but those early CD reissues were poor.
    I don't have a massive amount of jazz on any format so I couldn't say. What specifically was 'poor' about those releases?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Mar 2011

    Location: Reading

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    I'm George.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Don't conflate not liking it with harsh and fatiguing? Unless that is still the reason you don't like it? In which case further investigation is required. Digital is never going to sound like vinyl so a preference for vinyl is always going to be just that.

    And there is no 'new digital', it isn't any different from what it was in 1983. That's the whole point of my argument.

    I am not so sure....there have been significant changes in filtration with the early brick wall filters being considerably changed. Oversampling, upsampling and better understanding in the studios about how digital works. Early digital was a mess that was rushed to market. Fortunately, the market is a lot more mature and more companies know what they are doing. Not everything has 'progressed' and the introduction of delta/sigma was done for cheapness not audio. 16 bit TDA chips were a great peak in audio and that with a much better understanding of the layout of digital systems and better design of digital filters have helped. Fortunately, people like John Westlake did not rest on his laurels and got on with improving a less than good early start.

  6. #26
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by George47 View Post
    I am not so sure....there have been significant changes in filtration with the early brick wall filters being considerably changed. Oversampling, upsampling and better understanding in the studios about how digital works. Early digital was a mess that was rushed to market. Fortunately, the market is a lot more mature and more companies know what they are doing. Not everything has 'progressed' and the introduction of delta/sigma was done for cheapness not audio. 16 bit TDA chips were a great peak in audio and that with a much better understanding of the layout of digital systems and better design of digital filters have helped. Fortunately, people like John Westlake did not rest on his laurels and got on with improving a less than good early start.
    Whose been telling you this? 'Early digital was a mess and rushed to market?'

    Sorry this is all marketing fantasy. All that has happened in digital since 1983 is some tinkering around the edges. Yes, technical performance has improved as far as lab reports are concerned, but none of it extends to the realm of audibility. It is all a smokescreen to sell new product. The magazines are full of it, I would not rely on them to reliably inform you of anything.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  7. #27
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

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    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    I don't have a massive amount of jazz on any format so I couldn't say. What specifically was 'poor' about those releases?
    Poor dynamics, scale and just pretty flat across the range. In comparison to later release of the same material, these releases were very poor. On the other hand I would say a lot of that material has now been remastered and filtered to such an extent they have lost that atmosphere and feeling, but that's another issue. My long standing gripe that hi res is not always better. But I agree with other posts, the initial releases imho sounded rushed to the digital format.
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  8. #28
    Join Date: Apr 2012

    Location: N E Kent

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    I'm Geoff.

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    I've noticed that some albums sound noticeably better in their CD release form than the vinyl LP does and that's nothing to do with the system I use. The CD is just better.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    I'm not keen on getting into 'better' or 'worse' comparisons because that is all subjective. I've plenty of albums that I have on both vinyl and CD and the presentation is different. The CD lets you hear into the recording, the vinyl sounds more impressive.

    Early releases on CD tend to have a high dynamic range. This is why they sound 'flat'. The solution to this is to ramp up the volume. That does require a system that will play cleanly at high spl, this again is where those flat earth systems failed. The amps didn't have the power and were coloured and the speakers were coloured beyond belief. A speaker with a 5-10dB lift in the midband will sound aggressive if driven hard, but will sound 'engaging' at low levels.

    But If you don't or can't listen at high levels then I can appreciate why those cds don't cut it for you.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Nov 2008

    Location: North Down /Northern Ireland/ UK

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    I'm Neil.

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    I have a Marantz CD94 mk2 and CD7 that I like alot, played all sorts of genres on them and never felt they did some better than others.

    I like how they sound, both 1541 DACs.
    Regards Neil

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