Are expensive carts worth it?

[speedracer]

From my own personal experience the answer is yes. Throughout my hi fi journey I have had mostly low to mid range carts, both MM & MC, Goldring Eroica, 1042, Sumiko Evo 3, Supex 900, DV10x5, Ortofon Rondo Bronze etc. Whenever I have tried more expensive models they have always provided more of everything, eg Ortofon Rohmann, Sumiko Pearwood Celebration ii, Lyra Helikon mono. Now it could be that all they have done is highlight that my sources have been good enough to show any & every difference, which is nice, but for me the differences were worth the extra expenditure every time. One of my decks is a modified Lenco GL75, with a derivative of the standard arm, which I use for old jazz mono records, but I recently fitted the Pearwood cart & took it to a bake off, where it found itself up against a Chord CD.DAC combo, don't know what as I am not into digital. Now obviously it is horses for courses, personal preference or however else you describe digital against analogue, I was told privately by quite a few people there that they preferred the Lenco. I am making no claims of any sort, other than the cartridge lifted the performance of the Lenco to another level.

[montesquieu]

with that in mind is there a logical way of choosing cart/arm/turntable or is it just a matter of buying them and trying them out?
i get the cartridge resonance/tonearm mass thing but does it goes deeper than that?
for instance my denon 103 sounds better on the zeta tonearm at 16g mass as apposed to it being on my alphason at 11g mass with a heavy C/W and mass on the headshell.

I've done a lot of trial and error but found overall that following a low compliance/high mass philosophy has worked very well for me ... that's the closest thing I have to a 'system', beyond that it's all gut feel based on experience. (Which you don't really get without the trial and error).

I've personally found the Alphason, which at 11g effective mass is in the medium mass bracket, works best with medium to high compliance cartridges, even if you change the equation by mass loading at the headshell end. It's a superb arm with something like a Lyra. (I ran mine with a Helikon for a bit).

Never had a Zeta but at 16g effective mass, it's no surprise the 103 works better on it.

[worrasf]

FWIW over the last 45 years or so of hifi ownership/upgrading I have found that adhering to the "system hierarchy" method (https://www.originlive.com/system-ph...hy-advice.html) has stood me in good stead for most of my purchases. I grew up very much with the Linn/Naim tradition having had the iconic LP12/Ittok/Troika - 32/HiCap/250 - Kans system for many a year (and TBH very much enjoyed it) before moving over to the SL1210 & Crofts although I still have a TD150/SME 3009/AKG P8ES supernova)

Totally personal opinion of course but I think the temptation to spend lots of money on cartridges while neglecting TT & arm is because they have a sexy/eye candy allure while frankly bearing/platters and the like are pretty boring. And the gut feeling is that as it is the business end then money spent here must be a good move.

I have on occasion succumbed to the temptation of putting an expensive cartridge in a "cheap" arm and after an initial period of "wow that was money well spent" ended up feeling that the sound was unbalanced. I think that all other things being equal after a certain price point more expense just translates into a nuanced version of whether one likes a particular style of presentation - the law of diminishing returns personalised if you will. I suspect we all struggle to attain the idealised sound that we have in our minds (I know I do) and swapping out cartridges can be seen as the fastest way to get there (along with tube rolling of course )

I have come to the opinion that cartridges are mighty fickle things and small as well as big changes further back in the system can affect their sound immensely (for good and bad). I struggled for ages to get my Paradox Pulse DL103R to sing until I bought a Rothwell Headspace and was able to tweak the loading - now it gets more playtime than my Denon DL-S1. While the S1 is arguably more refined and detailed the PPG DL103R just boogies and sometimes that's the sound I want - it's not better or worse just different

Back in the day it was easy to go along to a dealer and listen to various bits of kit including cartridges (and I suspect we were more influenced by dealer recommendations as there was less choice and information out there) - now it's very difficult to do this so we rely on reviews/recommendations hoping that the written word can convey the sounds sufficiently for us to make an informed choice. The myriad of variable and differences between our own home/system/preferences than the reviewers makes this nigh on impossible.

We all want to make the "best choice" not waste money and get it right first time but life just isn't like that. IME there is a lot of trial and error and not a few mistakes but I genuinely believe the "system hierarchy" philosophy holds true.

I guess I've wandered off topic -

[alphaGT]

FWIW over the last 45 years or so of hifi ownership/upgrading I have found that adhering to the "system hierarchy" method (https://www.originlive.com/system-ph...hy-advice.html) has stood me in good stead for most of my purchases. I grew up very much with the Linn/Naim tradition having had the iconic LP12/Ittok/Troika - 32/HiCap/250 - Kans system for many a year (and TBH very much enjoyed it) before moving over to the SL1210 & Crofts although I still have a TD150/SME 3009/AKG P8ES supernova)

Totally personal opinion of course but I think the temptation to spend lots of money on cartridges while neglecting TT & arm is because they have a sexy/eye candy allure while frankly bearing/platters and the like are pretty boring. And the gut feeling is that as it is the business end then money spent here must be a good move.

I have on occasion succumbed to the temptation of putting an expensive cartridge in a "cheap" arm and after an initial period of "wow that was money well spent" ended up feeling that the sound was unbalanced. I think that all other things being equal after a certain price point more expense just translates into a nuanced version of whether one likes a particular style of presentation - the law of diminishing returns personalised if you will. I suspect we all struggle to attain the idealised sound that we have in our minds (I know I do) and swapping out cartridges can be seen as the fastest way to get there (along with tube rolling of course )

I have come to the opinion that cartridges are mighty fickle things and small as well as big changes further back in the system can affect their sound immensely (for good and bad). I struggled for ages to get my Paradox Pulse DL103R to sing until I bought a Rothwell Headspace and was able to tweak the loading - now it gets more playtime than my Denon DL-S1. While the S1 is arguably more refined and detailed the PPG DL103R just boogies and sometimes that's the sound I want - it's not better or worse just different

Back in the day it was easy to go along to a dealer and listen to various bits of kit including cartridges (and I suspect we were more influenced by dealer recommendations as there was less choice and information out there) - now it's very difficult to do this so we rely on reviews/recommendations hoping that the written word can convey the sounds sufficiently for us to make an informed choice. The myriad of variable and differences between our own home/system/preferences than the reviewers makes this nigh on impossible.

We all want to make the "best choice" not waste money and get it right first time but life just isn't like that. IME there is a lot of trial and error and not a few mistakes but I genuinely believe the "system hierarchy" philosophy holds true.

I guess I've wandered off topic -

I agree 100%

Russell

[Bigman80]

so far oli,im having new bearing cones made for the pioneer arm,then i can give it a real test.

To be honest mate, the Alphasson I had here (presuming all was well internally) wasn't up to much. I felt it improved on the mission 774 but apart from a sweet mid and treble, didn't have much authority in the bass and I hated the lack of Azimuth adjustment. It never had a future here.

I imagine once you've fettled that Pioneer arm, you will be very happy with it.

[montesquieu]

To be honest mate, the Alphasson I had here (presuming all was well internally) wasn't up to much. I felt it improved on the mission 774 but apart from a sweet mid and treble, didn't have much authority in the bass and I hated the lack of Azimuth adjustment. It never had a future here.

I imagine once you've fettled that Pioneer arm, you will be very happy with it.

Must have been in need of attention in some way. In my experience the Alphasons do deserve their reputation, albeit with careful cartridge matching.

[Bigman80]

Must have been in need of attention in some way. In my experience the Alphasons do deserve their reputation, albeit with careful cartridge matching.

Tom, you could be right. There was no obvious sign of any tampering or bearing issue. It just didn't do it's reputation justice. I actually remember feeling terribly disappointed with it. The bass never had any grip and that's saying something when it had the ZYX bloom on it.

[karma67]

Maybe the way it was mounted perhaps?

[Bigman80]

Maybe the way it was mounted perhaps?

I wouldn't have thought so, the Toshiba has a very solid plinth and the mount was extremely secure. Alignment was pinpoint too.

Like I say, maybe on another TT it would perform better or somewhere near its legendary status but it didn't work for me. I'm very confident the arm I use now would be very difficult to better.

[paulf-2007]

Obviously not coupled to the right ancillary equipment, then. Not so much taste, but synergy. Higher end cart's need to be partnered according to their needs and Ks do need at least a medium mass arm. Ios need an S.U.T. because of their ridiculously low output. Both need quality phono stages.

haha, the kit they were working with was top notch and the people in question know what they are doing. Maybe I've been underwhelmed because the cost of these carts do not give the playback I would expect from such high cost gear