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Thread: Can SE amps play Rage Against The Machine

  1. #21
    Join Date: Jan 2008

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Maybe there are SETs that will do it and I just haven't experienced them, but I would advise the OP to hear for himself before parting with any cash.
    Trust me, Andrew, there are, but the best ones are neither commercially available, nor cheap. As a general rule of thumb, if you want top-notch performance, I'd avoid buying a valve amp (SET or P/P), built outside of China, that costs under £5k.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #22
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    I'm Grant.

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    rock usually likes a bit of grunt, although my speakers do a reasonable job. they are fairly fast tho
    Regards,
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  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    In theory you can do it with very sensitive speakers, which is what everyone seems to be saying. I've got a low power valve amp and use it with 96db efficiency speakers but it will not go to the SPL I require for rock music without getting a little 'messy'
    It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!

    You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  4. #24
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!

    You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.

    Marco.
    Well my room is a factor in that I agree. I've no idea how large Gaz's room is.

    The limiting factor in my room is the amplifier's power output and nothing to do with the quality of the parts.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 9,651
    I'm Gary.

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    The Edingdales are 94db efficient, with an easy 8 Ohm load.
    Very easy to drive, and even with a "mighty" 8 or 9 watts on tap (depends on how you measure it) I cant get the volume past 10 o clock without pictureframes and a wall mounted acoustic guitar shaking themselves to bits.

    So plenty volume, but not just volume but deep tight TUNEFUL bass.
    The Edingdales go down to low 30's Hz and with an amp where the damping factor matches its deep and TIGHT.

    My amp was designed specifically for my speakers,
    so the SET amp/speaker voodoo thing is as good as it can be I guess.
    The amp is probably not a typical SET amp to be fair, aside Nick Gorhams technical wizardry the solid state regulation circuits are the product of the guys over at Audio Talk (DIY forum) getting their collective guru heads together and coming up with the circuit.
    State of the art and better than probably most commercial solutions.
    As Nick said, He wanted to see what happened when he surrounded SET with solid state, and he was "pleased" how the amp turned out.
    The transformers were the largest part of the cost, handwound, long waiting time and not cheap.

    Anyway,
    the point of all that was to go back to my earlier point:
    SET amps need a bit of extra thought to get them to show what they really can do and as Marco says, it ain't cheap to do it right.
    But model your system around that, the speaker choice and don't run the system in an exhibition hall and there's real magic there...trousers flapping, driving deep, tight low end...great for rock.
    Get the speakers right and a SET amp will shift air as good as anything else.

    My rooms not massive, but not tiny either...about 5 x 4 I think.
    As with most questions Hifi related there's no one single answer, except...it depends.

    Valve choice can make a difference to, had 3 different types of 300B in my amp now and unfortunately you get what you pay for with those too.



    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    It would if it was built better (read as, the designer had more budget available to spend on higher-quality parts). Therefore, its low power is not necessarily the limiting factor. Remember, it's not what you've got, but how you use it!

    You need to hear Gaz's Nick G-designed 8W SET amp, into his (92db - correct me here if necessary, Gaz) Eddingdales, in his room. There is NOTHING "messy" about the sound, nor is there any lack of 'grunt', which proves that SETs *can* rock, IF they're designed and paired with properly, speaker-wise, and you're not trying to use them in a stupidly big room.

    Marco.
    AC POWER
    Hardwired 10kVA balanced mains powering entire system
    AMPS
    Meridian 557 power Amp (Modded) / PS Audio BHK Preamp (Modded)
    SPEAKERS
    Wharfedale Evo 4.4
    DAC
    PS Audio Directstream (Modded)
    TURNTABLE
    Pro-Ject X8 balanced output via XLR / Ortofon Quintet Blue cartridge
    PHONOSTAGE
    Pro-Ject DS3 B balanced Input (TT and Phonostage powered by Pro-Ject Power box RS2 linear psu)
    DIGITAL
    OPPO 203 (Modded: Linear PSU, i2s output to Dac) - Roon Endpoint, HDMI input used for all things Streaming/ PS5 /AppleTV ... also good for movies apparently?
    MUSIC PLAYBACK
    Tweaked AP-Linux based Roon Server into Oppo 203 as Roon endpoint
    Ipad Roon Remote.
    Apple Music/ YouTube via AppleTV, fed to Dac via Oppo HDMI input/i2s output to Dac.
    SPEAKER CABLES
    Biwired: Duelund DCA10GA (Bass) Duelund DCA16GA (mid & treble) Duelund 12DCA used as jumpers (On
    "Blackcat Cable" Chris Sommivigo's advice - yup, even with biwire it sounds better - and it does)
    INTERCONNECTS
    All Balanced: Ghost+ recording studio XLR cables

  6. #26
    Join Date: Feb 2008

    Location: South Wales

    Posts: 9,151
    I'm NotTakingLifeTooSeriouslyTheseDays.

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    I agree ie the cost aspect, and yes, in my Hibrid single ended amps, they use a lot of semiconductor circuitry to control "All aspects of the valve, so that it is held rock steady, even the heater circuits are unique, in that they do not use conventional regulators, but a form of single ended power amps of their own! I produced these amps over 15 years ago now, and although there are probably some things I may have done diffrently, they're sonic performance Always make me smile, when I get chance to realy listen to them...
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    "Quite well" is an understatement, however, as you well know, their design is far from conventional, with them featuring the rather novel solid-state aspect of things. Also, if someone wanted a pair of monos built today, how much would you be asking, something like £15 grand?

    That would be out of most people's price range, although they'd be getting a pair of amps, which if produced, say, by someone such as AudioNote, would retail for probably £50k! And yours would almost certainly sound better.

    My point being, however, (and indeed as Gaz has also said, which I know you too will agree with) is that the best valve amps, either SET or push-pull, simply don't come cheap, as you can't get away with cutting corners, like you can with some SS amps.

    Ultimately, everything revolves around the size and quality of the transformers, and in general, good valve amps are also more labour intensive to build, especially those that are hardwired, point to point!

    Marco.
    "Today scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality"
    Nikola Tesla



    Its now a conspiracy theory to believe that the Immune system is capable of doing the job it was designed to do.
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  7. #27
    Join Date: Oct 2008

    Location: Glasgowshire

    Posts: 9,651
    I'm Gary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyTD View Post
    I agree ie the cost aspect, and yes, in my Hibrid single ended amps, they use a lot of semiconductor circuitry to control "All aspects of the valve, so that it is held rock steady, even the heater circuits are unique, in that they do not use conventional regulators, but a form of single ended power amps of their own! I produced these amps over 15 years ago now, and although there are probably some things I may have done diffrently, they're sonic performance Always make me smile, when I get chance to realy listen to them...
    Absolutely.
    Regulation and power supply makes all the difference in hifi generally, but particularly with SET amps.

    Anthony's another one of the few (like Nick) who really knows his valve onions, be interesting to compare notes sometime.
    AC POWER
    Hardwired 10kVA balanced mains powering entire system
    AMPS
    Meridian 557 power Amp (Modded) / PS Audio BHK Preamp (Modded)
    SPEAKERS
    Wharfedale Evo 4.4
    DAC
    PS Audio Directstream (Modded)
    TURNTABLE
    Pro-Ject X8 balanced output via XLR / Ortofon Quintet Blue cartridge
    PHONOSTAGE
    Pro-Ject DS3 B balanced Input (TT and Phonostage powered by Pro-Ject Power box RS2 linear psu)
    DIGITAL
    OPPO 203 (Modded: Linear PSU, i2s output to Dac) - Roon Endpoint, HDMI input used for all things Streaming/ PS5 /AppleTV ... also good for movies apparently?
    MUSIC PLAYBACK
    Tweaked AP-Linux based Roon Server into Oppo 203 as Roon endpoint
    Ipad Roon Remote.
    Apple Music/ YouTube via AppleTV, fed to Dac via Oppo HDMI input/i2s output to Dac.
    SPEAKER CABLES
    Biwired: Duelund DCA10GA (Bass) Duelund DCA16GA (mid & treble) Duelund 12DCA used as jumpers (On
    "Blackcat Cable" Chris Sommivigo's advice - yup, even with biwire it sounds better - and it does)
    INTERCONNECTS
    All Balanced: Ghost+ recording studio XLR cables

  8. #28
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    The limiting factor in my room is the amplifier's power output and nothing to do with the quality of the parts.
    Or, your room's too big for any [low-powered] SET amp to 'drive', regardless of the speakers used. However, that's not the fault of the amp; simply that you're using it in the wrong room.

    Gary's set up, in that respect, ably demonstrates that a SET valve amp can 'boogie' with the best of them, given half a chance!

    TBH, if you look at things differently, and more positively, getting a SET valve amp forces you to be more disciplined than usual about room and speaker matching, both of which are crucial to obtaining a good sound, so it could be argued that folk who own such gear will, for that reason, potentially have better sounding systems than most

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #29
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,737
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Or, your room's too big for any low-powered SET amp to 'drive', regardless of the speakers used. However, that's not the fault of the amp; simply that you're using it in the wrong room.

    Gary's set up, in that respect, ably demonstrates that a SET valve amp can 'boogie' with the best of them, given the chance!

    TBH, if you look at things differently, and more positively, getting a SET valve amp forces you to be more disciplined than usual about room and speaker matching, both of which are crucial to obtaining a good sound, so it could be argued that folk who own such gear will, for that reason, potentially have better sounding systems than most

    Marco.
    What I suppose I was trying to say was I like the sound of SET amps but in my room I would need to use horns to get the clean levels I want and I don't like horns unless they are multi way like Speedy Steve's. And having a multi-way horn array like that constructed is out of my league.


    They do have a magic to them that no other type of amplifier has.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #30
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    That's fairy muff

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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