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Thread: Thorens TD-124 SME Arm and Arm board related questions

  1. #1
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

    Default Thorens TD-124 SME Arm and Arm board related questions

    Hi all.

    I've recently been thinking of upgrading from my 3009 SII to a 3012 and wondered if anyone here has ever done the conversion?

    I spoke to Johnnie of Audio Origami yesterday and he listed the parts I'd need but also recommended buying a one from scratch. As always J7's advice is taken with upmost appreciation and would always recommend his work, top man.

    Yet looking at the prices of the 3012 it seems quite prohibitive for me. Also, the 3012 has to be around 85% identical to the 3009 so I'd only be buying the same arm again. (just trying to keep costs down)

    So... Can anyone recommend a conversion? And would I get a reduced tracking error with a 3012?

    Next question is armboard materials.

    I'm currently using a Schopper arm board which is super but I've been looking at alternatives.

    For example, I have a plywood board which looks lovely but is thinner than the Schopper so I have to use the VTA pillar adjustment even more which I don't like using as (I find) it detracts from the sound. To use the VTA pillar I like to set it as low as possible, even better with no adjustment but that even with the Schopper board isn't possible as the dashpot lift que lever thingie doesn't work.

    Other materials I've been seaching for is Panzawood and also alluminium to which sounds interesting.

    Obviously, I need to decide on a 12" tonearm before getting an armboard as they are different sizes.

    Next question.

    Has anyone used a spacer for the base of an SME arm? To get around adjusting the height of the tonearm I wondered if these are worth it?

    Last question (maybe)

    I use the SPU GT with my turntable and I use the standard Stevenson ortofon protractor. But looking on oldroadaudio.com I see there is a protractor for an SPU. Would it be better using this protractor?



    Any help would be appreciated.

    Jo
    Last edited by The Black Adder; 12-05-2018 at 08:47.
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  2. #2
    montesquieu Guest

    Default

    Lots of questions here first of all geometry - if you look at a cartridge in an SME headshell alongside an SPU you'll see that it puts the stylus tip in quite a different place to the SPU - quite a bit forward. So the geometry will be different and a protractor is essential if you want to use a 3012 for SPU. You will also need a heavier counter weight as the standard counterweight is not designed to balance out an SPU's 32g even on a standard 3009 never mind the slightly massier 3012.

    Best suited to SPU is the Series 1 3012 as it's a genuinely high mass arm. But with the right counterweight, later ones can be used too though they are lighter and aren't quite so well matched. Either way the distance will differ from standard SPU distance (295 I think?) if you use a protractor to set it up for SPU. Adam (Westlower) recently set up a 3012 series 1 on his Garrard, I'm not sure what distance he ended up at.

    I have all my other cartridges set for SPU distance so that I don't need to worry about geometry once it's set up, one of these is really handy for this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TECHNICS-...-/263109761017

    The differences in sound between a 12in and a 9in arm are more than simply tracing error - in fact it's probably the least of the differences. With properly set up arm any audible difference in end groove between 9 and 12in won't be that much, if it's even detectale. But the 'feeling' is quite different. I'm running two Ikeda arms now on my TD124, a 9in and a 12in, otherwise more or less identical, and the differences are surprising - the 9in is faster, probably more detailed, has better timing; the 12in is more relaxed, has better ambience, the music feels slower. I thought that I would settle into a preference based on cartridges for each arm but actually I'm basing the preference more on musical genre and on what kind of listening I feel like doing.

    Spacer - yes these work fine I used a 10mm aluminium one off ebay, there's a chap on either Audiogone or Vinyl Engine from Canada has made some lovely wood ones and has a few left - worth having a look.

    Finally armboard - I've not been convinced that the angled armboard approach sticking out over the edge of the TD124 plinth, wide of the frame and of the mounting bolts, is necessarily a good way to go, I think a plinth made to accommodate a 12in arm will secure it much better (which is the route I went down and makes it possible to keep a 9in arm in the standard position). But I guess it's fine to try out how it sounds.

    As for conversion kits ... these were quite widespread a few years back but I haven't seen much of them lately so have no view on that. I did think about it myself at one point. If you want to do the work yourself in might make sense but not sure about the economics if someone is putting it together for you, Series 1s are expensive but the later 3012s aren't too bad and the M2-12R which I had for a while looks the same but in my opinion is a better arm than the later 3012 can be had s/h for not much over £1k.

  3. #3
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

    Default

    Just to confirm the spindle to pivot distance
    On the 3012 using an SPU is 303mm
    This is different to the much published distance knocking around.
    Tom kindly helped set it up using the Dr. Fieckert set up protractor
    tool and we know it's correct as it sounds fabulous.
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  4. #4
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

    Default

    Thanks for taking the time with your reply, Tom.

    Do you think the special Ortofon SPU alignment template is a good thing to have or is the standard Stevenson one I have okay?

    I've always struggled aligning the SPU with the template due to it's curved sides, so a best guess and most importantly 'time' has always been the ticket.

    So, lets say I stick the 3009 arm, do you recommend the Dr. Feickert protractor for that?

    Trying to get the alignment of the 3009 has always been a bit hit and miss for me. I could do with getting it nailed.

    There are plenty out there who have decided that the 3009 on the TD124 is simply not good enough but once set up it's a great sounding arm. IGD is sometimes (but not always) a problem hence why I could do with finally nailing the solution.

    This may lead to getting a more adaptive armboard such as the one from audioclassique (http://audioclassique.com/page3.html) which has a little more adjustment room for the 3009.

    Good idea?
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  5. #5
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by WESTLOWER View Post
    Just to confirm the spindle to pivot distance
    On the 3012 using an SPU is 303mm
    This is different to the much published distance knocking around.
    Tom kindly helped set it up using the Dr. Fieckert set up protractor
    tool and we know it's correct as it sounds fabulous.
    Thanks adam.

    Yes that tool does look very good.
    Ultrafide U500DC power amplifier - Croft Vitale )highly modified) - TRIO L-07D Turntable - Denon DL103C1 - Funk Firm Houdini - Lentek MC head amp - 15" Tannoy Monitor Gold Loudspeakers in Lockwood Major cabinets (From Trident Studios) - Tannoyista SPEC 3 Custom Crossovers - VanDamme Black Speaker Cable


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  6. #6
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

    Default

    I think spindle to pivot may differ on versions of SME3012, just to add more
    Confusion!
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  7. #7
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

    Default

    Lol... I'll just stick with the 3009 then... Lol

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  8. #8
    montesquieu Guest

    Default

    Sorry had guests this weekend ... would recommend the Dr Freickert for sure. With an SPU you can't change the offset anyway (so in that regard the curved sides don't matter really) ... the main thing is to find the spindle to pivot distance that works best and puts the stylus tip in the right place.

    A dedicated protractor for SPU with SME 3009/3012 (assuming the right version is selected and the the correct SPU stylus distance from headshell base is put in the calculation might give you more to work with, but the Dr Freickert is just so useful for establishing and fine-tuning spindle to pivot that I generally use it as my primary tool. I do have some custom protractors from the guy on ebay but it's not always easy to ensure they are in the correct alignment to the pivot centre, unlike the Dr Frecikert where the's no ambiguity (so long as it's clear where to point to as the pivot centre on top of the arm).

    BTW I couldn't remotely argue that the 3009 isn't good enough for SPU, yes in theory the numbers don't crunch ideally in terms of resonance but I've heard both 3009 and 3012 sounding very good indeed with SPU.

  9. #9
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,853
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Adder View Post
    Thanks for taking the time with your reply, Tom.

    Do you think the special Ortofon SPU alignment template is a good thing to have or is the standard Stevenson one I have okay?

    I've always struggled aligning the SPU with the template due to it's curved sides, so a best guess and most importantly 'time' has always been the ticket.

    So, lets say I stick the 3009 arm, do you recommend the Dr. Feickert protractor for that?

    Trying to get the alignment of the 3009 has always been a bit hit and miss for me. I could do with getting it nailed.

    There are plenty out there who have decided that the 3009 on the TD124 is simply not good enough but once set up it's a great sounding arm. IGD is sometimes (but not always) a problem hence why I could do with finally nailing the solution.

    This may lead to getting a more adaptive armboard such as the one from audioclassique (http://audioclassique.com/page3.html) which has a little more adjustment room for the 3009.

    Good idea?
    The alignment protractor used depends on the arm in use and not vice versa, since the protractor is used to display the two radii where the angular tracking error is exactly zero. These two null-radii are in turn determined by the geometry of the arm that has been chosen by the designer.

    For the Series I and Series II SME arms, the inner null-radius is set to 60.3mm; since it was known that the distortion due to deviation from true tangential tracking varied inversely with radius. Hence to minimise 'end of side' distortion, the inner null-radius was set to be the same as the innermost groove radius. This radius was independent of arm length, which is why changing a 9" SME arm to one of 12" effective length will not improve end of side distortion, but will reduce tracking error distortion elsewhere by a factor of 9/12. So in your case use the alignment protractor that came with SME arm.

    The Ortofon protractor shown corresponds to the Baerwald arm geometry with null-radii at 66mm and 121mm. Since it is impossible to adjust the offset angle when using an SPU in an SME arm, the only degree of freedom you have at your disposal to adjust the overhang through use of the sliding bedplate, thus it will not be possible to achieve zero tracking error at both of the null points.

    It seems all Thorens 124 armboards vary as to where the arm mounting slot for the SME arm has been cut. I have four SME armboards and they are all slightly different. The only advantage of using the modified arm board you mention, is if you are finding that in order to achieve the correct overhang you have to push the arm back to the rear limit of the bedplate.



    On a slightly different aspect, you mention difficulty in counterbalancing your SPU when mounted in an SME Series II/S2 arm. I have had no trouble counterbalancing modern SPUs in my SME arm, but did find that when I tried your SPUGTE in my arm (Peter sent it to me to correct an intermittent connection, before he sent it on to you), I found the arm counterweight needed to be placed precariously close to the end of the arm stub. In the end I replaced it with the counterweight from a 12" SME, but suggest you try to use a set of stylus scales, so that with the rider weight set at 'zero' the cartridge is counterbalanced so that the VTF is 4g. That way the counterweight won't be too far back near the end of the arm stub, and you still have the freedom to reduce the VTF to < 4g by moving the rider weight forward.
    Barry

  10. #10
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The alignment protractor used depends on the arm in use and not vice versa, since the protractor is used to display the two radii where the angular tracking error is exactly zero. These two null-radii are in turn determined by the geometry of the arm that has been chosen by the designer.

    For the Series I and Series II SME arms, the inner null-radius is set to 60.3mm; since it was known that the distortion due to deviation from true tangential tracking varied inversely with radius. Hence to minimise 'end of side' distortion, the inner null-radius was set to be the same as the innermost groove radius. This radius was independent of arm length, which is why changing a 9" SME arm to one of 12" effective length will not improve end of side distortion, but will reduce tracking error distortion elsewhere by a factor of 9/12. So in your case use the alignment protractor that came with SME arm.

    The Ortofon protractor shown corresponds to the Baerwald arm geometry with null-radii at 66mm and 121mm. Since it is impossible to adjust the offset angle when using an SPU in an SME arm, the only degree of freedom you have at your disposal to adjust the overhang through use of the sliding bedplate, thus it will not be possible to achieve zero tracking error at both of the null points.

    It seems all Thorens 124 armboards vary as to where the arm mounting slot for the SME arm has been cut. I have four SME armboards and they are all slightly different. The only advantage of using the modified arm board you mention, is if you are finding that in order to achieve the correct overhang you have to push the arm back to the rear limit of the bedplate.



    On a slightly different aspect, you mention difficulty in counterbalancing your SPU when mounted in an SME Series II/S2 arm. I have had no trouble counterbalancing modern SPUs in my SME arm, but did find that when I tried your SPUGTE in my arm (Peter sent it to me to correct an intermittent connection, before he sent it on to you), I found the arm counterweight needed to be placed precariously close to the end of the arm stub. In the end I replaced it with the counterweight from a 12" SME, but suggest you try to use a set of stylus scales, so that with the rider weight set at 'zero' the cartridge is counterbalanced so that the VTF is 4g. That way the counterweight won't be too far back near the end of the arm stub, and you still have the freedom to reduce the VTF to < 4g by moving the rider weight forward.
    Hi Barry.

    In bold... Today I've been trying to do this again on my new armboard and this is exactly what I'm finding. I can't seem to get the correct overhang and at the same time get the SPU to align with the inner null point of the Stevenson protractor. I have to pull the arm forward to align it sending the other setting out.

    So I'm wondering if the hole is correctly cut on the arm board.

    Counterbalancing seems to be nailed . I can balance out to 4g but both counterweights and both rider weights are closer to the pivot than the stub end of the arm... does that sound correct?
    Last edited by The Black Adder; 13-05-2018 at 19:06.
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