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Thread: Thorens TD-124 SME Arm and Arm board related questions

  1. #21
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I think we are in danger of over-worrying about all this. Arm/cartridge alignment for a pivoted arm is a compromise at best; and one can argue as to which approach is 'optimum' if, indeed, any are.

    ...

    So rest assured, regardless of which alignment protractor you use, you will always be able to set up the arm overhang (either by moving the cartridge in the headshell, or by adjusting the arm pivot to TT spigot distance (since overhang = effective arm length - pivot to spigot distance), to place a null radius at one of the chosen points. There will always be a second null radius somewhere on the record surface, but as I have said, whether or not this corresponds to an optimum arrangement is a matter of debate
    Totally agree with this and tallies with my comments in post #14.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXTON View Post
    Thats very strange. Mines 295mm I use Fieckert as well and currently sport a Silver Meister I SPU.
    It's very complicated ... it seems SME were utterly inconsistent with their effective length and spindle to pivot on this series, there was a thread a long time ago http://theartofsound.net/forum/archi...p/t-22395.html

  2. #22
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REXTON View Post
    Thats very strange. Mines 295mm I use Fieckert as well and currently sport a Silver Meister I SPU.
    yes i checked, defo 303mm.
    I think there is some variation on the models. As I understand it I have the 3012 mk2 (we initially thought it was the Mk1 but it has a one piece main counterweight and i believe from research that the Mk1 had a 2 piece main counterweight, not including the separate rider weight)

    As i said I think there is a grey area to which is what on models and then we can only come to the conclusion different models
    have varied spindel to pivot distances. Confused... you will be!
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,850
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post

    It's very complicated ... it seems SME were utterly inconsistent with their effective length and spindle to pivot on this series, there was a thread a long time ago http://theartofsound.net/forum/archi...p/t-22395.html
    There is no fixed spindle to pivot distance with an SME arm, because of the sliding bed plate used. Without getting out the installation protractor which allows one to mark out and cut the arm base slot and measure the distance from the centre of the spindle hole to the centre of the arm base slot, I can't quote the figure. But whatever it is, unless the slot is poorly positioned on the arm board, it is largely irrelevant as this distance is adjusted in order to achieve the correct overhang.

    Early SME arms were certainly inconsistent with their geometry, as can be seen by looking at the vinylengine.com database. They even changed the geometry midway through the production of the 3009 (Improved) arm; with arms having later serial numbers conforming to the Baerwald geometry. SME now consistently conform to Baerwald for all subsequent models.

    I'm still mystified as to why SME deviated from the 52mm stylus to headshell flange distance of the SPUs when they introduced their own headshell, unless they thought the 2mm difference would simply be absorbed within the +/- 12.7mm compass of the sliding bedplate adjustment.
    Barry

  4. #24
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm still mystified as to why SME deviated from the 52mm stylus to headshell flange distance of the SPUs when they introduced their own headshell, unless they thought the 2mm difference would simply be absorbed within the +/- 12.7mm compass of the sliding bedplate adjustment.
    Yes this really annoyed me too when I had an SME 12in arm (M2-12R) as it meant there could be no co-existence between SPU and SME headshells without completely resetting the arm on each change as a result the SME headshells stayed in the box.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,850
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WESTLOWER View Post
    yes i checked, defo 303mm.
    I think there is some variation on the models. As I understand it I have the 3012 mk2 (we initially thought it was the Mk1 but it has a one piece main counterweight and i believe from research that the Mk1 had a 2 piece main counterweight, not including the separate rider weight)

    As i said I think there is a grey area to which is what on models and then we can only come to the conclusion different models
    have varied spindel to pivot distances. Confused... you will be!
    The Mk. I SME used a very thick bedplate as well as 'tall' locking nuts, compared with those parts of the Mk. II arms. The Mk. I also had a very wide adjustment of azimuth, allowing the headshell socket to be rotated at least 45 degrees so that EMT/Neumann cartridges could be used. The Mk. I's also used a different 5-way connector at the arm base, whereas the Mk. IIs used a modified 4-way Belling & Lee 'Unitor' connector.

    In those days, there was no standardisation of the position of the stylus relative the to cartridge fixing. So the designation 9" or 12" was only notional. The original SME arm was designed by ARA for his own use and with Ortofon SPUs in mind (that is why SME adopted Ortofon's headshell coupling, and originally the arm was sold without a headshell; that came later as an optional extra), the effective arm length was not quoted at all. Likewise the spindle to pivot distance was only nominal because this distance is adjusted to achieve the desired overhang, where again in those days, the only concern was to achieve a null-point at the end of a 12" diameter record, to try and minimise end of side distortion.
    Barry

  6. #26
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The Mk. I SME used a very thick bedplate as well as 'tall' locking nuts, compared with those parts of the Mk. II arms. The Mk. I also had a very wide adjustment of azimuth, allowing the headshell socket to be rotated at least 45 degrees so that EMT/Neumann cartridges could be used. The Mk. I's also used a different 5-way connector at the arm base, whereas the Mk. IIs used a modified 4-way Belling & Lee 'Unitor' connector.

    In those days, there was no standardisation of the position of the stylus relative the to cartridge fixing. So the designation 9" or 12" was only notional. The original SME arm was designed by ARA for his own use and with Ortofon SPUs in mind (that is why SME adopted Ortofon's headshell coupling, and originally the arm was sold without a headshell; that came later as an optional extra), the effective arm length was not quoted at all. Likewise the spindle to pivot distance was only nominal because this distance is adjusted to achieve the desired overhang, where again in those days, the only concern was to achieve a null-point at the end of a 12" diameter record, to try and minimise end of side distortion.
    Great information Barry, thank you.
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  7. #27
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

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    Up and running in my new plinth.. Lookin' and sounding great.

    Some pics with the Schopper arm board and some with the matching ply wood arm board.

    Currently running with the Schopper but the matching arm board looks lovely too.



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  8. #28
    montesquieu Guest

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    Looks fab!

  9. #29
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 2,146
    I'm Adam.

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    lovely!! well done.
    "lack of passion is fatal"


    Vinyl: Thorens TD-124mk2 / SME-312 Aluminium 'special' / SME M2-9R / STEREO: Etsuro Urushi Cobalt / Shure M3D / Ortofon SPU A95 / Cartridge Man Music Master / Shure - SC35C (US) / SAEC C3 MC MONO: Miyajima Zero B 0.7mil mono / Miyajima Premium 1.0 / Amps & SUTs: Radford STA25 mk3 / AD Audio 'Satchmo2' pre & LCR phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / ETR-MONO SUT Digital: Audio Note 4.1 (with DAC5 upgrades) DAC / Roon / Tidal Speakers: Tannoy 12" MGs' in RFC custom 'Rutland' Cabinets with RFC crossovers / Tannoy ST-100 Super Tweeters Cables: LFD Grainless phono / RFC Mercury / Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper / Kimber 12TC / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / Duelund DCA20GA interconnects / SW1X Audio SPDIF Aero 6 / Mains Power Conditioner / Box Furniture rack / Audiodesk Systeme Vinyl Cleaner / a very beautiful & understanding Wife!

  10. #30
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

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    Thanks guys

    Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
    Ultrafide U500DC power amplifier - Croft Vitale )highly modified) - TRIO L-07D Turntable - Denon DL103C1 - Funk Firm Houdini - Lentek MC head amp - 15" Tannoy Monitor Gold Loudspeakers in Lockwood Major cabinets (From Trident Studios) - Tannoyista SPEC 3 Custom Crossovers - VanDamme Black Speaker Cable


    Tannoyista.com

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