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Thread: Thorens TD-124 SME Arm and Arm board related questions

  1. #21
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

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    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I think we are in danger of over-worrying about all this. Arm/cartridge alignment for a pivoted arm is a compromise at best; and one can argue as to which approach is 'optimum' if, indeed, any are.

    ...

    So rest assured, regardless of which alignment protractor you use, you will always be able to set up the arm overhang (either by moving the cartridge in the headshell, or by adjusting the arm pivot to TT spigot distance (since overhang = effective arm length - pivot to spigot distance), to place a null radius at one of the chosen points. There will always be a second null radius somewhere on the record surface, but as I have said, whether or not this corresponds to an optimum arrangement is a matter of debate
    Totally agree with this and tallies with my comments in post #14.

    Quote Originally Posted by REXTON View Post
    Thats very strange. Mines 295mm I use Fieckert as well and currently sport a Silver Meister I SPU.
    It's very complicated ... it seems SME were utterly inconsistent with their effective length and spindle to pivot on this series, there was a thread a long time ago http://theartofsound.net/forum/archi...p/t-22395.html
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ikeda IT-407 tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N, Ikeda 9C III, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Sonovox MC-4 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; preamp - Firebottle custom; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage: Firebottle Plus; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  2. #22
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

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    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by REXTON View Post
    Thats very strange. Mines 295mm I use Fieckert as well and currently sport a Silver Meister I SPU.
    yes i checked, defo 303mm.
    I think there is some variation on the models. As I understand it I have the 3012 mk2 (we initially thought it was the Mk1 but it has a one piece main counterweight and i believe from research that the Mk1 had a 2 piece main counterweight, not including the separate rider weight)

    As i said I think there is a grey area to which is what on models and then we can only come to the conclusion different models
    have varied spindel to pivot distances. Confused... you will be!
    "lack of passion is fatal"
    Garrard 401 / SME 3012 J7 Rewired / audio-technica ATP-12T - phonomac modified / Ortofon Vintage SPU GE /Shure M3D /DV XX2Mk2 / The Cartridge Man Music Master with isolator / Vintage GE VRII Mono / WAD 300b Power modded, TJ Mesh Plate Valves / David Coe AD Audio 'Satchmo' Pre & Phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / Tannoy 12" MGs in RFC Custom Rutland Cabinets with RFC Custom Crossovers / Speaker Cables: Duelund DCA16GA Tinned Copper / Rpi3 & Digi + pro / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / SW1X Audio Design DAC 1 Signature / Interconnects: Duelund DCA20GA home brew /SW1X Audio SPDIF AERO 6 / AD Audio Silver USB / Synology NAS Drive / Roon / Tidal HiFi / Mains Power Conditioner

  3. #23
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 17,441
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post

    It's very complicated ... it seems SME were utterly inconsistent with their effective length and spindle to pivot on this series, there was a thread a long time ago http://theartofsound.net/forum/archi...p/t-22395.html
    There is no fixed spindle to pivot distance with an SME arm, because of the sliding bed plate used. Without getting out the installation protractor which allows one to mark out and cut the arm base slot and measure the distance from the centre of the spindle hole to the centre of the arm base slot, I can't quote the figure. But whatever it is, unless the slot is poorly positioned on the arm board, it is largely irrelevant as this distance is adjusted in order to achieve the correct overhang.

    Early SME arms were certainly inconsistent with their geometry, as can be seen by looking at the vinylengine.com database. They even changed the geometry midway through the production of the 3009 (Improved) arm; with arms having later serial numbers conforming to the Baerwald geometry. SME now consistently conform to Baerwald for all subsequent models.

    I'm still mystified as to why SME deviated from the 52mm stylus to headshell flange distance of the SPUs when they introduced their own headshell, unless they thought the 2mm difference would simply be absorbed within the +/- 12.7mm compass of the sliding bedplate adjustment.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  4. #24
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 2,936
    I'm Tom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm still mystified as to why SME deviated from the 52mm stylus to headshell flange distance of the SPUs when they introduced their own headshell, unless they thought the 2mm difference would simply be absorbed within the +/- 12.7mm compass of the sliding bedplate adjustment.
    Yes this really annoyed me too when I had an SME 12in arm (M2-12R) as it meant there could be no co-existence between SPU and SME headshells without completely resetting the arm on each change as a result the SME headshells stayed in the box.
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ikeda IT-407 tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N, Ikeda 9C III, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Sonovox MC-4 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; preamp - Firebottle custom; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage: Firebottle Plus; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  5. #25
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 17,441
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WESTLOWER View Post
    yes i checked, defo 303mm.
    I think there is some variation on the models. As I understand it I have the 3012 mk2 (we initially thought it was the Mk1 but it has a one piece main counterweight and i believe from research that the Mk1 had a 2 piece main counterweight, not including the separate rider weight)

    As i said I think there is a grey area to which is what on models and then we can only come to the conclusion different models
    have varied spindel to pivot distances. Confused... you will be!
    The Mk. I SME used a very thick bedplate as well as 'tall' locking nuts, compared with those parts of the Mk. II arms. The Mk. I also had a very wide adjustment of azimuth, allowing the headshell socket to be rotated at least 45 degrees so that EMT/Neumann cartridges could be used. The Mk. I's also used a different 5-way connector at the arm base, whereas the Mk. IIs used a modified 4-way Belling & Lee 'Unitor' connector.

    In those days, there was no standardisation of the position of the stylus relative the to cartridge fixing. So the designation 9" or 12" was only notional. The original SME arm was designed by ARA for his own use and with Ortofon SPUs in mind (that is why SME adopted Ortofon's headshell coupling, and originally the arm was sold without a headshell; that came later as an optional extra), the effective arm length was not quoted at all. Likewise the spindle to pivot distance was only nominal because this distance is adjusted to achieve the desired overhang, where again in those days, the only concern was to achieve a null-point at the end of a 12" diameter record, to try and minimise end of side distortion.
    Have you listened to this month's choice in the Album Club?

    Barry

  6. #26
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 756
    I'm Adam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The Mk. I SME used a very thick bedplate as well as 'tall' locking nuts, compared with those parts of the Mk. II arms. The Mk. I also had a very wide adjustment of azimuth, allowing the headshell socket to be rotated at least 45 degrees so that EMT/Neumann cartridges could be used. The Mk. I's also used a different 5-way connector at the arm base, whereas the Mk. IIs used a modified 4-way Belling & Lee 'Unitor' connector.

    In those days, there was no standardisation of the position of the stylus relative the to cartridge fixing. So the designation 9" or 12" was only notional. The original SME arm was designed by ARA for his own use and with Ortofon SPUs in mind (that is why SME adopted Ortofon's headshell coupling, and originally the arm was sold without a headshell; that came later as an optional extra), the effective arm length was not quoted at all. Likewise the spindle to pivot distance was only nominal because this distance is adjusted to achieve the desired overhang, where again in those days, the only concern was to achieve a null-point at the end of a 12" diameter record, to try and minimise end of side distortion.
    Great information Barry, thank you.
    "lack of passion is fatal"
    Garrard 401 / SME 3012 J7 Rewired / audio-technica ATP-12T - phonomac modified / Ortofon Vintage SPU GE /Shure M3D /DV XX2Mk2 / The Cartridge Man Music Master with isolator / Vintage GE VRII Mono / WAD 300b Power modded, TJ Mesh Plate Valves / David Coe AD Audio 'Satchmo' Pre & Phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / Tannoy 12" MGs in RFC Custom Rutland Cabinets with RFC Custom Crossovers / Speaker Cables: Duelund DCA16GA Tinned Copper / Rpi3 & Digi + pro / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / SW1X Audio Design DAC 1 Signature / Interconnects: Duelund DCA20GA home brew /SW1X Audio SPDIF AERO 6 / AD Audio Silver USB / Synology NAS Drive / Roon / Tidal HiFi / Mains Power Conditioner

  7. #27
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 7,595
    I'm Josie.

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    Up and running in my new plinth.. Lookin' and sounding great.

    Some pics with the Schopper arm board and some with the matching ply wood arm board.

    Currently running with the Schopper but the matching arm board looks lovely too.



    Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

  8. #28
    Join Date: Feb 2010

    Location: Berkshire, UK

    Posts: 2,936
    I'm Tom.

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    Looks fab!
    Main: Speakers 'RFC' Tannoy Canterburys / custom crossovers; Amp - Radford STA100; Pre EAR 912; Vinyl: Thorens TD124 MkII + Ikeda IT345-CR1 / Ikeda IT-407 tonearms; Cartridges Stereo - Miyajima Madake, Ortofon SPU Royal N, Ikeda 9C III, SAEC/Excel C3; Mono - Miyajimas - Zero 0.7, Premium 1.0, Sonovox MC-4 1.0, Edison '78' 4.0 conical, and Shure M44 strapped for mono with several Expert Stylus conicals for different eras of 78s; Phono stage and SUT from EAR 912; Esoteric Sound Re-Equalizer for equalisation of early mono and 78, switchable in from tape loop; Digital: Audio Note CDT2/II transport, heavily modded AN Kit DAC + Mutec MC3+USB.

    Study: Speakers - Tannoy DC6; Amp: Pass Aleph 'Mini'; preamp - Firebottle custom; Vinyl: Garrard 401 with AT1503 tonearm and vintage Ortofon SL-15e with matching Ortofon 2-15k SUT; Phono Stage: Firebottle Plus; Digital - Trichord Genesis III CDP + Arcam rBlink; Schiit Multibit DAC.

  9. #29
    Join Date: Mar 2016

    Location: Barnet, london UK

    Posts: 756
    I'm Adam.

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    lovely!! well done.
    "lack of passion is fatal"
    Garrard 401 / SME 3012 J7 Rewired / audio-technica ATP-12T - phonomac modified / Ortofon Vintage SPU GE /Shure M3D /DV XX2Mk2 / The Cartridge Man Music Master with isolator / Vintage GE VRII Mono / WAD 300b Power modded, TJ Mesh Plate Valves / David Coe AD Audio 'Satchmo' Pre & Phono / Hashimoto HM-7 SUT / Tannoy 12" MGs in RFC Custom Rutland Cabinets with RFC Custom Crossovers / Speaker Cables: Duelund DCA16GA Tinned Copper / Rpi3 & Digi + pro / SW1X Audio Design USB-SPdif / SW1X Audio Design DAC 1 Signature / Interconnects: Duelund DCA20GA home brew /SW1X Audio SPDIF AERO 6 / AD Audio Silver USB / Synology NAS Drive / Roon / Tidal HiFi / Mains Power Conditioner

  10. #30
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 7,595
    I'm Josie.

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    Thanks guys

    Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk

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