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Thread: Thorens TD-124 SME Arm and Arm board related questions

  1. #11
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

    Posts: 9,228
    I'm Josie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Sorry had guests this weekend ... would recommend the Dr Freickert for sure. With an SPU you can't change the offset anyway (so in that regard the curved sides don't matter really) ... the main thing is to find the spindle to pivot distance that works best and puts the stylus tip in the right place.

    A dedicated protractor for SPU with SME 3009/3012 (assuming the right version is selected and the the correct SPU stylus distance from headshell base is put in the calculation might give you more to work with, but the Dr Freickert is just so useful for establishing and fine-tuning spindle to pivot that I generally use it as my primary tool. I do have some custom protractors from the guy on ebay but it's not always easy to ensure they are in the correct alignment to the pivot centre, unlike the Dr Frecikert where the's no ambiguity (so long as it's clear where to point to as the pivot centre on top of the arm).

    BTW I couldn't remotely argue that the 3009 isn't good enough for SPU, yes in theory the numbers don't crunch ideally in terms of resonance but I've heard both 3009 and 3012 sounding very good indeed with SPU.
    Thanks Tom... Then the protractor is on the list. Thanks very much.

    Can you understand where I'm coming from regarding the overhang and correct alignment?



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  2. #12
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

    Posts: 31,853
    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    The curved sides of the whale-shaped Ortofon G headshell doesn't make it easy to check that the sides of the headshell are exactly parallel to the lines of the alignment protractor when the stylus is located in the centre point. But this is exactly what you have to do. You have to look vertically down on the headshell and assess whether the sides of the headshell, at its widest point, are tangential to the lines on the protractor. Not easy, but can be done with patience.

    I don't understand what you mean by not being able to achieve correct overhang and at the same time achieve alignment using the protractor. They are one and the same: if you can achieve alignment using the protractor, you have achieved the correct overhang. Are you finding you have to slide the arm too far forward? In that case, maybe the armboard you mention could help as it allows the slot of the SME sliding bedplate to lay closer to a notional radius from the turntable spigot, thereby increasing the range of overhang adjustment. You may have seen Thorens armboards cut so that the slot is parallel to the side of the TT. These may look aesthetically more pleasing to the eye, but limits the available range of adjustment.


    Apropos the position of the counterweight assemby - the closer to the pivot point the better, so what you have achieved in your situation is fine.
    Barry

  3. #13
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

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    I'm Josie.

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    Hi Barry. Well, the recommendation for the SPU overhang is 16mm.. Although I don't have a tool to exactly measure it (yet) it just doesn't look right... Hope that makes sense.

    Your right about the arm board.. The straight cut sme hole does look correct... My Schopper one is slanted while the ply wood one is straight.

    I'll have another go tomorrow with the straight cut board.

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  4. #14
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Adder View Post
    Thanks Tom... Then the protractor is on the list. Thanks very much.

    Can you understand where I'm coming from regarding the overhang and correct alignment?


    I would express it a little different from Barry though I know what he means .. you don't have control over adjustment of overhang using the normal methods (twisting or adjusting the position of the cartridge in the headshell) so all you have to work with is the spindle to pivot distance, which then delivers the best alignment you are going to get. It's true that every protractor is custom but I find that adjusting the spindle to pivot distance with the Dr Freckert enables me to set the overall distance so that SPU tip then generally comes into close alignment with the curve generated by custom protractors, usually to within a mm or so, and that can be fine-tuned with the custom protractor, if you have confidence that it's 100% accurate (something I'm often skeptical about). What I use the custom protractor for mainly is to ensure an appropriate degree of twist on non-SPU cartridges, as I generally keep to SPU collet to stylus tip distances for all my cartridges.

    Actually I tend not to get too uptight about these things, it seems to me that 1mm or so out at inner or outer groove or at specific points on a protractor curve is going to make relatively little audible difference when you compare the much larger impacts of different geometries and null point assumptions - the fixed nature of an SPU means it's unlikely to be 100% perfect on every arm at the 'official' spindle to pivot distance (though as it happens, it is on my Ikeda IT-345 CR1 at precisely 230mm, and comes in nicely on the (much older) Ikeda IT-407 if I set it back a fraction over 1mm from the quoted distance).

    Also (and I'm always hesitant to disagree with Barry on any topic!) but I'm not entirely sure it's worthwhile to focus on the sides of the headshell when adjusting an SPU ... if you look at an SPU from underneath, the cartridge angle within it is very slightly offset within the headshell, so the sides aren't telling you the exact alignment anyway - another reason mainly to focus on the placement of stylus tip.

  5. #15
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Adder View Post
    Hi Barry. Well, the recommendation for the SPU overhang is 16mm.. Although I don't have a tool to exactly measure it (yet) it just doesn't look right... Hope that makes sense.

    Your right about the arm board.. The straight cut sme hole does look correct... My Schopper one is slanted while the ply wood one is straight.

    I'll have another go tomorrow with the straight cut board.

    Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
    Just been looking at tools, effectively I use the Dr Freckert as a '1 point' tools to place the stylus correctly and fine-tune the spindle to pivot distance from the quoted figure. The Project one is reasonably priced and also uses a '1 point' approach https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pro-Ject-...0AAOSw~AVYpd~V

  6. #16
    Join Date: Nov 2010

    Location: Yorkshire

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    I'm Andrew.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WESTLOWER View Post
    Just to confirm the spindle to pivot distance
    On the 3012 using an SPU is 303mm
    This is different to the much published distance knocking around.
    Tom kindly helped set it up using the Dr. Fieckert set up protractor
    tool and we know it's correct as it sounds fabulous.
    Thats very strange. Mines 295mm I use Fieckert as well and currently sport a Silver Meister I SPU.
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  7. #17
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Ignore the 'recommended' overhang for the SPU; you're not using it in an Ortofon arm, you are using it in an SME arm.

    The overhang and offset angle are solely related to the arm alone and not to the cartridge being used. Both variables are determined by three quantities: the effective arm length (the distance between the stylus and the arm pivot point in the horizontal plane) and both the innermost and outermost groove radius of the record.

    Just use the SME alignment protractor, and get the sides of the SPU headshell parallel to the lines of the protractor when the stylus is at the point marked, by adjusting the overhang (which is all you can do) with the sliding bedplate of the SME arm.




    http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...earm-alignment
    Barry

  8. #18
    Join Date: Sep 2009

    Location: Derbyshire

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    I'm Josie.

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    Aaah... Ah, hahaaaa. Lol... Didn't know that Barry regarding the overhang being only with an ortofon Arm...

    Doh!

    Gotcha... I'll just align it.

    I think I'll try the protractor though.. Always handy.

    I do fancy an ortofon arm BTW... They are supposed to be nice.



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  9. #19
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I think we are in danger of over-worrying about all this. Arm/cartridge alignment for a pivoted arm is a compromise at best; and one can argue as to which approach is 'optimum' if, indeed, any are.

    As I showed in the piece I wrote for The Knowledge (cited above), with two degrees of freedom at the designer's disposal (the overhang and the offset angle), one can always arrange for there to be two points on the record surface where the tracking error is zero. Where those points are, and how the distortion is distributed away from those points is a matter of choice. There are three recognised approaches: those analysed by Baerwald, Loefgren and Stevenson, each having a different criterion of optimisation.

    To complicate matters further, British arm manufacturers of the '60s simply designed their arms to place one null radius at the innermost groove radius. They didn't consider where the second null radius would be; which is why the accompanying alignment protractor only has one radial point marked. If one can ascertain the effective length of the arm and make an assumption of the inner and outer radii of the record surface, then one can calculate where the two null radii will lay.

    So rest assured, regardless of which alignment protractor you use, you will always be able to set up the arm overhang (either by moving the cartridge in the headshell, or by adjusting the arm pivot to TT spigot distance (since overhang = effective arm length - pivot to spigot distance), to place a null radius at one of the chosen points. There will always be a second null radius somewhere on the record surface, but as I have said, whether or not this corresponds to an optimum arrangement is a matter of debate

    In general most modern British arms are designed to follow the Baerwald approach (certainly the SME IV, V and their 'M' series, as well as the 'Improved' 3009 having late serial numbers). Japanese arms tend to follow Stevenson's approach, but choose a different figure for the innermost groove radius.
    Barry

  10. #20
    Join Date: Feb 2013

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    Try a mofi geo-disc.
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