Do mains cables make a difference??

[Macca]

That's fair enough. At which point though, do you simply trust your ears and believe what you heard was true, lest you go through life in a permanent state of doubt, shunning the existence of everything that can't be 'proven', and as a result learning nothing new?

All that does is stifle progress.

Marco.

On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress. If you don't know how it works then you can't improve on it, except by chance.

There's plenty of times that a difference is pretty obvious and there's no question that the sound has changed. Then there's those occasions where we think we hear a subtle change. It's only in those latter situations that we have to question what we think we hear. Especially if there is no credible reason for there being any change.

We have to acknowledge that we can be fooled by our senses because it is a fact that we can be.

To me that is the practical and realistic approach. Imagination Land is not a good place to be putting a hi-fi system together or doing anything else, for that matter.

[Marco]

On the contrary I'd say that jumping to the wrong conclusions about cause and effect is the worst possible thing for progress.

But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either.

I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.

For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...

Therefore, I'm asking at what point, after being confident that you know how something works (as far as possible), and having researched the 'facts', do you simply trust your ears, even if what you're hearing appears to contradict it?

Essentially it comes down to this:

At what point could "imagination land" become reality if, despite seemingly being disproved by currently accepted wisdom, what you're hearing was true?

Marco.

[Marco]

Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?

Marco.

[Macca]

Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?

Marco.

Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'. it can be wrong but it happens so rarely that it isn't really worth worrying about. And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.

[Marco]

Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'...

Not at all. I'm simply putting faith in the ability of my judgment criteria (and ears), when assessing the efficacy of 'fancy mains leads', to reveal (for me) the truth, which sometimes contradicts 'accepted wisdom'. That's quite different from what you're implying.

And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.

It's not about the existence of "some amazing thing"... That's just sensationalist nonsense.

The explanation for the phenomenon in question is far likelier to be much simpler than that, and probably just a case of looking at things differently [thinking 'outside of the box'] and measuring/assessing what needs to be measured/assessed, with apparatus capable of accurately doing so, rather than applying the wrong tool, for the wrong job, or perhaps investigating the wrong area completely, which is partly what I think the problem is.

Marco.

[Marco]

Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'...

Plus, if we're talking about putting too much faith in something, then I'd contend that folk place WAY too much faith in the veracity of 'accepted wisdom', and what is deemed as true by basic electrical theory (when applied to matters such as we're discussing), which is one of the reasons why so little progress has been made in verifying some of audio's, shall we say, more 'contentious' subjective claims!

Marco.

[nonuffin]

But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either. I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.

For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...

Marco.

I was going to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that your mains leads were doing their bit to keep the interference gremlins out of your system. 20 years of experiment and observation obviously works well for you and being right or wrong gives me no cause to challenge what you have said or your actions in arriving at that. My experience differs from that I will admit, but I must respect your opinion accordingly, as we might both be right without realising it.

[Marco]

I was going to ask how you arrived at the conclusion that your mains leads were doing their bit to keep the interference gremlins out of your system. 20 years of experiment and observation obviously works well for you and being right or wrong gives me no cause to challenge what you have said or your actions in arriving at that. My experience differs from that I will admit, but I must respect your opinion accordingly, as we might both be right without realising it.

Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.

For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought, which I'm vehemently against.

Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?

For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.

There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system, and blindly obeying text books, is no way to learn.

Marco.

[nonuffin]

Absolutely, Dominic. And I respect your contrary experience.

For me, however, there's a danger of allowing your natural senses and thought processes to become bogged down/governed by 'what is deemed as correct', based on currently accepted wisdom. It stifles free thought.

Maybe 9 times out of 10 currently accepted wisdom is right, but what about the other time when it might not be, or in fact isn't - or are we saying that we unquestionably know all there is to know about cables, and how they influence the behaviour of audio equipment: everything that needs proving has already been proven - and so there is nothing new to learn?

For me, that's far from the case and constitutes as lazy thinking, liable to stifle progress, just as much as blindly believing in any kind of 'foo', invented by and claimed as true, by cable manufacturers.

There has to be a point in the final analysis when, if for what you consider to be very good reason, you have the gumption to trust your ears. Quite simply, pooh-poohing everything that contradicts your belief system is no way to learn.

Marco.

I think you been a bit too gracious towards accepted 'wisdoms' as to be honest they have only paid lip service to the subject, relying only on resistance, inductance and capacitance as the beginning, middle and end of the knowledge base which has remained virtually static since the 1940's. No, I am mistaken there, they actually realised that current flow direction was actually opposite to what the wisdoms said it was.

Those measurements being used to evaluate cable performance are flawed because they are primitive in the extreme. For a start, they are purely static measurements and bear no relation whatsoever in the measurement of complex frequencies, interactions and dynamics found in real music reproduction, because they are unable to do so and won't admit that. It is the very reason objectivists throw a smoke screen of pointless accusations like placebo and expectation bias to divert attention away from those shortcomings. No wonder I bristle plenty when they are aimed at me in these debates, because I may be placebo'ed a couple times at most, have some sort of expectation bias a few times perhaps, but after hundreds of times over several decades certainly not and I always challenge these people to show me evidence of prolonged, sustained and repeatable facts that these conditions can be maintained for hundreds of times and spanning decades. They can't, because that evidence does not exist.

I jokingly said earlier in this thread that a mains cable is not there just to convey electricity from the wall socket to the system without spilling any on the carpet and after deep cogitation for more time than I would admit to, I realised that a mains cable has more demands on it than just that simple job. If you think that it is no more than a narrow bore pipe for a steady trickle of leccy to keep your system well fed with the stuff, then you couldn't be more wrong. The current flow demand can change instantaneously from a mere trickle to a full blown call of 20 amps plus in a millisecond, but, "Aha" you might say, the power supply should provide that, but it doesn't and cannot because where exactly does all this power come from? I was taught many moons ago that a capacitor cannot discharge and charge at the same time and logic says that is true, so while the capacitor is trying to supply peak current for a transient or bass, what happens to the charge cycle for the next transient peak come from? There is always a delay and a poorly built mains cable just adds even more delay, longer in fact than the charge rate of the capacitor. It is the only sensible(ish) answer I could find that addressed the issue of bass boom and overhang from a loudspeaker which miraculously vanished when an upgrade mains cable was installed. This bass overhang is the signature for me that the mains cable is not up to scratch.

Metallurgy I say also plays a major part with mains cables, not just curing bass overhang but also hiss. I was at a dealers and we were trying out mains cables on a Consonance valve system with corner horns. I noticed that the noise floor and particularly hiss was considerably reduced almost to zero with the pure silver power cord, which shocked me as I thought that hiss was "one of those things" we all had to live with as it was inherent with amplifiers. It is known fact that silver is more conductive than copper but it must also have a different grain structure in the metal but this wasn't confirmed in my own mind until some nice chap in Japan was also similarly inclined to the grain boundary theory and took steps to manufacture copper wire without them. When OHNO cast cables came onto the scene a similar thing happened compared to a normal copper cable, the hiss was substantially reduced. The continuous casting process virtually eliminates the grain boundaries of the metal, so it is not unreasonable to assume that it is those same grain boundaries that gives rise to hiss. The theory is that hiss is a series of millions of microscopic 'explosions' or arcs as the electrical current jumps across these boundaries. Electricity isn't like water flowing through a pipe but an electromotive magnetic force which has no physical contact with the metal itself so I am told, although the evidence seems to contradict this. Here we go again.

It may be this trait often gets referred to as the music emanating from the proverbial "inky blackness" that many listeners enthuse over.

[Marco]

Not before, Dominic, I compliment you on your earlier (rather enlightened) post. Let's tackle the juiciest bits....

I think you been a bit too gracious towards accepted 'wisdoms' as to be honest they have only paid lip service to the subject, relying only on resistance, inductance and capacitance as the beginning, middle and end of the knowledge base which has remained virtually static since the 1940's.

...which is why, in isolation, it's simply too 'blunt' a tool to use for conclusively disproving the existence of effects people hear with 'fancy mains leads'. Yet the naysayers stubbornly cling onto it, as the basis for defending their position, in order to protect themselves from a fatal attack of cognitive dissonance

Those measurements being used to evaluate cable performance are flawed because they are primitive in the extreme. For a start, they are purely static measurements and bear no relation whatsoever in the measurement of complex frequencies, interactions and dynamics found in real music reproduction, because they are unable to do so and won't admit that. It is the very reason objectivists throw a smoke screen of pointless accusations like placebo and expectation bias to divert attention away from those shortcomings.

Yup, and I've witnessed that blinkered behaviour from them time and time again, over the years, whenever these types of subjects come up. Why can't they be more open-minded to new possibilities and admit that their argument is flawed? Real scientists would never be so arrogant as to assume they know it all, so these wannabe ones/self-appointed 'experts' you see on forums, lecturing to all and sundry about how right they are on subjects such as this, should learn to take a few humility pills...!

No wonder I bristle plenty when they are aimed at me in these debates, because I may be placebo'ed a couple times at most, have some sort of expectation bias a few times perhaps, but after hundreds of times over several decades certainly not and I always challenge these people to show me evidence of prolonged, sustained and repeatable facts that these conditions can be maintained for hundreds of times and spanning decades. They can't, because that evidence does not exist.

Indeed, and that is exactly my stance on the matter. Of course I've been fooled a few times over the years, when assessing things like cables, and been a victim of expectation bias, but not EVERY time I hear something that doesn't fit with accepted wisdom, or the contents of 'Johnny's Bible of Scientific Facts, from 1940'. Like you say, objectivists use it as a convenient smokescreen to deflect attention away from the vulnerability of their (often flawed) arguments.

I jokingly said earlier in this thread that a mains cable is not there just to convey electricity from the wall socket to the system without spilling any on the carpet and after deep cogitation for more time than I would admit to, I realised that a mains cable has more demands on it than just that simple job. If you think that it is no more than a narrow bore pipe for a steady trickle of leccy to keep your system well fed with the stuff, then you couldn't be more wrong. The current flow demand can change instantaneously from a mere trickle to a full blown call of 20 amps plus in a millisecond, but, "Aha" you might say, the power supply should provide that, but it doesn't and cannot because where exactly does all this power come from? I was taught many moons ago that a capacitor cannot discharge and charge at the same time and logic says that is true, so while the capacitor is trying to supply peak current for a transient or bass, what happens to the charge cycle for the next transient peak come from? There is always a delay and a poorly built mains cable just adds even more delay, longer in fact than the charge rate of the capacitor. It is the only sensible(ish) answer I could find that addressed the issue of bass boom and overhang from a loudspeaker which miraculously vanished when an upgrade mains cable was installed. This bass overhang is the signature for me that the mains cable is not up to scratch.

That's most interesting, and for me a credible explanation of what's happening. It certainly reflects my experience of the matter, particularly the bass overhang thing, which for me is almost always symptomatic of what you describe. Experience tells me that one of the first improvements heard when substituting a 'cheapo kettle lead' [let's just call it that for now, Andrew] with something better suited for use in hi-fi applications, is a tightening of the bass, which previously (in comparison) was a little bloated. There are other effects too, but that's almost always the main one.

Metallurgy I say also plays a major part with mains cables, not just curing bass overhang but also hiss. I was at a dealers and we were trying out mains cables on a Consonance valve system with corner horns. I noticed that the noise floor and particularly hiss was considerably reduced almost to zero with the pure silver power cord, which shocked me as I thought that hiss was "one of those things" we all had to live with as it was inherent with amplifiers. It is known fact that silver is more conductive than copper but it must also have a different grain structure in the metal but this wasn't confirmed in my own mind until some nice chap in Japan was also similarly inclined to the grain boundary theory and took steps to manufacture copper wire without them. When OHNO cast cables came onto the scene a similar thing happened compared to a normal copper cable, the hiss was substantially reduced. The continuous casting process virtually eliminates the grain boundaries of the metal, so it is not unreasonable to assume that it is those same grain boundaries that gives rise to hiss. The theory is that hiss is a series of millions of microscopic 'explosions' or arcs as the electrical current jumps across these boundaries. Electricity isn't like water flowing through a pipe but an electromotive magnetic force which has no physical contact with the metal itself so I am told, although the evidence seems to contradict this. Here we go again.

Again, all very interesting stuff, and the kind of input I enjoy seeing in these discussions: people relating their genuine experiences and 'throwing out' some ideas for consideration, which possibly helps explain what they've heard, thus stimulating discussion of the subject, rather than it being shot down by arrogant, blinkered objectivists who are more keen on massaging their egos and protecting their belief systems from scrutiny, than on entertaining the possibility of learning something new!

It may be this trait often gets referred to as the music emanating from the proverbial "inky blackness" that many listeners enthuse over.

It's definitely a possibility, and not something I've noticed being suggested before. Moreover, it's certainly the type of helpful lateral thinking we like to encourage on AoS, as opposed to the unhelpful closed-mindedness and relentless rubbishing of ideas, put forward by people for consideration, which we so often see instead elsewhere, when they don't fit with the established objectivist dogma.

Anyway, do hang around and keep up the good work. You're one of the most interesting new members we've had join us in ages!

Marco.