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Thread: Do mains cables make a difference??

  1. #131
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    from that link

    Every audiophile who has experimented with better power cables has heard the performance advantage they offer. Indeed, the amount of improvement can be astounding, often transforming a system from good to amazing. As audiophiles, we trust our ears but it’s hard to understand how replacing just one short link in a long chain of the power delivery system can have such a dramatic impact. The following article is intended to answer those questions

    Note the bits in bold.

    Now here is an ABX test where they had to try to distinguish between Nordost power cables and some standard leads supplied with some Parasound amps.

    https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_1...s-12-2004.html

    No-one scored better than random chance.

    It is clear from the above analysis that no matter what background or experience a participant brought to the test, it did not help him or her score better than anyone else. 49% accuracy is 49% accuracy.

    But the amount of improvement can be astounding!

    Unless you don't know if the fancy power cord is in use or not. Then it doesn't sound any different.

    Now it is an ABX test so it is not a 'normal' listening environment. But even so you'd expect an 'astonishing improvement' to be fairly easy to spot in pretty much any circumstances.

    But no-one seems to be capable of doing it.

    There was also a home test done on Hi-fi Wigwam back in about 2004 where the cables were sent to peoples' homes so they could swap about at their leisure. The cables were disguised so that it was not possible to tell the fancy leads from the standard ones.

    Unsurprisingly people claimed to hear clear differences even between identical power leads. Sadly the pages documenting this have been deleted from the site. I don't know why this would be, except perhaps because the site hosts many adverts for fancy power cables.

    if the people making the fancy power cables really have made amazing new discoveries in electrical theory how come they are not stepping forward for their Nobel prizes?

    There is an enormous credibility gap here people, and I for one am not going to attempt to jump it.
    You should expect no lesser grade of bullshit from someone who manufactures cables, so by rights you shouldn't blend that person's quotes with the rest of your post lol

    As for ABX tests, they are a total waste of time and only prove how ineffective they really are because they have been imported from a different set of test criteria. For a start, a true ABX test has no active involvement from human participants in a live situation, so that is one myth busted. Secondly, because there are human participants they are under stress due to "test" conditions so it stuffed from the very outset. Thirdly, because most of these audio ABX tests involve the poor sods being subjected to a selection of tracks repeated over and over again in a matrix amounting to the number of cables (a minimum of three) times the variables, that amounts to hearing them many times over during the considerable length of time it takes to carry out the test. By the time all that is completed they are ready to open a vein, not provide value judgements.

    As for the Hifiwigwam home test, it was insisted upon that FOUR cables would be sent out and even the three bog standard "kettle leads" were all different, there was still the stress element present (however small) with the listeners too, so little surprise it produced inconsistent results.

    Given the fact that all of these ABX tests have failed, why is it always assumed the item under test has failed and not the test regime itself that has failed?
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  2. #132
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Maybe because the genuine improvements often experienced cannot be explained by basic electrical theory, and occur in other areas of audio not so far properly tested?

    Or perhaps not sufficiently rigorous testing for the phenomenon [and the enormous amount of money required for that to happen] has so far been carried out by the relevant authorities, in order for those claiming such improvements to be put forward for a Nobel prize?

    Marco.
    Or no-one knows how they work for the simple reason that they don't work, except in the psychological realm. And since such psychological effects are well documented and have been for over a century, there's no prize money on offer for demonstrating them again?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  3. #133
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nonuffin View Post
    You should expect no lesser grade of bullshit from someone who manufactures cables, so by rights you shouldn't blend that person's quotes with the rest of your post lol

    As for ABX tests, they are a total waste of time and only prove how ineffective they really are because they have been imported from a different set of test criteria. For a start, a true ABX test has no active involvement from human participants in a live situation, so that is one myth busted. Secondly, because there are human participants they are under stress due to "test" conditions so it stuffed from the very outset. Thirdly, because most of these audio ABX tests involve the poor sods being subjected to a selection of tracks repeated over and over again in a matrix amounting to the number of cables (a minimum of three) times the variables, that amounts to hearing them many times over during the considerable length of time it takes to carry out the test. By the time all that is completed they are ready to open a vein, not provide value judgements.

    As for the Hifiwigwam home test, it was insisted upon that FOUR cables would be sent out and even the three bog standard "kettle leads" were all different, there was still the stress element present (however small) with the listeners too, so little surprise it produced inconsistent results.

    Given the fact that all of these ABX tests have failed, why is it always assumed the item under test has failed and not the test regime itself that has failed?
    So you are saying that the contribution that a fancy power cable makes is so subtle that in any situation other than relaxing at home with zero stress and no concerns with expectations from anyone else then it cannot be heard at all?

    Because that sounds like it is the imagination at work to me.

    And it doesn't tally with the various reports I have read where the improvement is described in 'Wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen ' terms.

    So which is it?
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  4. #134
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    Yes, it's quite possible that basic electrical theory doesn't explain everything. However, you have to know basic electrical theory before concluding that it is inadequate. If you have no grasp of basic electrical theory, how do you know it can't explain how a mains cable works?
    You just say 'fuck it' and trust your ears!

    More seriously, as I've already said, for me it's all about adopting the use of your OWN judgement criteria, and once they've been satisfied and you believe that what you're hearing is real, then that's an end to the matter, until such times as YOU consider the subject worthy of further investigation.

    That's what I do

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #135
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Or no-one knows how they work for the simple reason that they don't work, except in the psychological realm. And since such psychological effects are well documented and have been for over a century, there's no prize money on offer for demonstrating them again?
    Lol.... I'm not saying that's not possible (of course it is), but then neither is what I suggested either. You have to be open-minded to ALL genuine possibilities, not simply those that fit best with your belief system.

    I'll wait now until you tackle the questions I asked you earlier, otherwise we'll just end up going round in circles

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  6. #136
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I think the point of placebos is that you don't know if it's a placebo or not. Same with expectation bias - you're unaware of it.

    Yes, it's quite possible that basic electrical theory doesn't explain everything. However, you have to know basic electrical theory before concluding that it is inadequate. If you have no grasp of basic electrical theory, how do you know it can't explain how a mains cable works?
    Well if you are a sane right minded individual you should know that you could be subject to placebo and expectation bias and change your perceptions accordingly. Placebo ONLY has an effect upon you if you are totally unaware it is occurring and so the game is over if you do know.

    You can also do as I do sometimes and deliberately put your mind into a negative expectation mode instead of a positive one. You get more pleasant surprises that way
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  7. #137
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But that's not what I'm saying... And I'm not "jumping to the wrong conclusions" either.

    I've reached the conclusions I have after 20 years of experimenting with mains and signal cables, the results of which have satisfied my judgement criteria. They may not be right, but they satisfy me, and so that being the case, I'm happy to believe they're true.

    For me, that's a practical and realistic approach...

    Therefore, I'm asking at what point, after being confident that you know how something works (as far as possible), and having researched the 'facts', do you simply trust your ears, even if what you're hearing appears to contradict it?

    Essentially it comes down to this:

    At what point could "imagination land" become reality if, despite seemingly being disproved by currently accepted wisdom, what you're hearing was true?

    Marco.
    You don't have any guarantees. Subjective impressions are just that and imagination land indistinguishable from reality providing nothing interrupts the illusion.

    You'll note that I have no issues with people selling, buying and using fancy mains cables, it is only when people claim that they have an effect other than the psychological that I become interested in the debate.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  8. #138
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,776
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Moreover, extrapolating things further, can you also see how if what you're hearing *was* true, then blindly believing the contrary, simply because currently accepted wisdom dictates so, could actually stifle progress...?

    Marco.
    Yes, but your putting far too much faith in the idea that 'accepted wisdom is wrong'. it can be wrong but it happens so rarely that it isn't really worth worrying about. And that's in general terms, in the specific field of audio electronics the chance of their being some amazing thing that we did not know about is effectively zero.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  9. #139
    Join Date: Apr 2018

    Location: South East Cornwall

    Posts: 322
    I'm Dominic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    So you are saying that the contribution that a fancy power cable makes is so subtle that in any situation other than relaxing at home with zero stress and no concerns with expectations from anyone else then it cannot be heard at all?

    Because that sounds like it is the imagination at work to me.

    And it doesn't tally with the various reports I have read where the improvement is described in 'Wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen ' terms.

    So which is it?
    Both and neither Martin.

    There are no absolutes of generalisms that can be applied. People have different hearing acuity and have widely differering musical tastes, some people can hear a fly fart at 100 paces, some people can't. I have 2 friends that we have listening sessions with, one can probably hear the fly fart, the other just likes the "tone" of what he hears - whatever that is, so what us two hear completely escapes him. That is his world and I am not in a position to berate or mock him.

    I place a lot of credence in the "wife immediately heard the difference from the kitchen" statement, because how unprompted and how unsolicited a statement do you need or want?
    CD player = Marantz CD6006
    DAC/pre = Rotel RC 1572
    Power amp = ADA PF201
    Speaks = Quadral Chromium Style 6

  10. #140
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    You don't have any guarantees. Subjective impressions are just that and imagination land indistinguishable from reality providing nothing interrupts the illusion.
    Indeed, there are no guarantees, but that also applies to the accuracy of 'accepted wisdom'. Sometimes that needs challenging just as much as "imagination land"!

    Lest we all become 'robots', with no thought processes of our own - and I'll fight that to the death.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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