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Thread: Chinese-style mass facial recognition scanning now in UK

  1. #21
    Join Date: Aug 2008

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    Like anything this kind of collection and compiling of information could bring huge benefits. Finding missing loved ones, tracking criminal activity, only see adverts and articles you are genuinely interested in seeing. But this is how it is often sold in order to get acceptance and we have already seen how the data can be used for more insidious reasons.
    ~Paul~

  2. #22
    Join Date: Aug 2009

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalsea View Post
    and we have already seen how the data can be used for more insidious reasons.
    Have you got some examples of this?

    Don't get me wrong I am not in favour of some sort of big brother state but I'm struggling to reconcile what I perceive as the reality of data mining with the 'we're all doomed' narrative.

    In short, I don't really see how the information they are able to collect about me can be used to compromise me.

    Is it not the case that the people making the money out of the data mining are simply talking up its relevance for the benefit of their punters?
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Have you got some examples of this?

    Don't get me wrong I am not in favour of some sort of big brother state but I'm struggling to reconcile what I perceive as the reality of data mining with the 'we're all doomed' narrative.

    In short, I don't really see how the information they are able to collect about me can be used to compromise me.

    Is it not the case that the people making the money out of the data mining are simply talking up its relevance for the benefit of their punters?
    Cambridge Analytical. The data was not specific but didn’t need to be as it was being used to guide opinions en-masse over time.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primalsea View Post
    Cambridge Analytical. The data was not specific but didn’t need to be as it was being used to guide opinions en-masse over time.
    Oh that. A lot of fuss about nothing IMO. Some Facebook users did not realise that they were the product. Big deal. I'm sure all that info about what they had for dinner and what's going on in their relationship with Gary or whoever is massively valuable in the right (wrong) hands.

    And I'm deeply sceptical about the effect of mass media on opinion-forming. I think the only reason this idea has gained any traction is because the value of the data has been massively over-exaggerated by the people trying to sell it.

    It's on a par with the sort of wishful thinking that says people only vote Conservative because they read the Daily Mail.

    Does no-one understand anymore that the media and the politicians react to public opinion rather than form it?
    Martin



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  5. #25
    Join Date: Feb 2010

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edwardlon View Post
    I'm deeply concerned about the civil liberties aspect of such technology and am concerned that various public bodies (and indeed private bodies) will increasingly use the 'security' aspect to keep rolling out such tech. And then once they start linking up the data that is collected with other datasets it becomes easier for all our movements being tracked - just so that they have it for possible investigations down the road. Already internet service providers (ISPs) have to collect and retain one years data of our online movements, it is easy to see how the increasing authoritarian impulse will dictate that all CCTV data will need to be retained. And then add facial recognition to CCTV and you have a truly Orwellian world.

    Even now large shopping malls routinely collect data provided freely, but not knowingly, by all shoppers who have a smartphone. These are tracked using standard wifi and 4g tech and each phone is uniquely identified for footfall movements via the phone's unique MAC (Media Access Control) code. Join that data up with government and ISP data and we have even more reasons to be justifiably paranoid.

    And I don't buy the "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear" line.
    Totally agree.

    In China they are deploying this technology along with other big data driving initiatives such as the Citizen score - if you are are a criminal - or a criminal as far as the state is concerned which might include someone with opinions contrary to the CCP or even just campaigning against some policy issue - your score will be reduced, to the point where you won't be able to get credit, rent an apartment or even buy a train ticket (you need state ID to buy train tickets in China).

    Great for tourists - Beijing has to be the safest place in the world for tourists, there are police, plain clothes or uniformed, on every street - but not so great if you don't go along with Chairman Xi's worldview.
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  6. #26
    Join Date: Oct 2008

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    Just a scenario.

    Lets say Martin you are looking at stuff online that you shouldn't...serious stuff...its all being tracked and logged somewhere on a database.
    Over time these Databases become more and more interlinked, the advertising databases have the largest datasets...so Governments think its a good resource on people?

    Nefarious players in Government and elsewhere get access to this data, whether by deliberate act or (mostly the case) human error and this information is sold on to Health insurance Companies...security services...whatever.
    Your refused credit, health insurance and are put on some watch-list your unaware of.

    These things start slow...deliberately so.
    Over time with constant exposure peoples shock gets less and less, people more and more apathetic to it.
    Candy Crush anyone?

    The new Normal sets in...and it's too late.


    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Have you got some examples of this?

    Don't get me wrong I am not in favour of some sort of big brother state but I'm struggling to reconcile what I perceive as the reality of data mining with the 'we're all doomed' narrative.

    In short, I don't really see how the information they are able to collect about me can be used to compromise me.

    Is it not the case that the people making the money out of the data mining are simply talking up its relevance for the benefit of their punters?
    have hifi n stuff

  7. #27
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazjam View Post
    Just a scenario.

    Lets say Martin you are looking at stuff online that you shouldn't...serious stuff...its all being tracked and logged somewhere on a database.
    Over time these Databases become more and more interlinked, the advertising databases have the largest datasets...so Governments think its a good resource on people?

    Nefarious players in Government and elsewhere get access to this data, whether by deliberate act or (mostly the case) human error and this information is sold on to Health insurance Companies...security services...whatever.
    Your refused credit, health insurance and are put on some watch-list your unaware of.

    These things start slow...deliberately so.
    Over time with constant exposure peoples shock gets less and less, people more and more apathetic to it.
    Candy Crush anyone?

    The new Normal sets in...and it's too late.
    I follow that, but what is this serious on-line stuff I could be looking at? As in it is serious enough that the government would be concerned that I am looking at it but not so serious that it is already illegal for me to be doing so?

    And what is our ideal outcome here? That no-ones' internet browsing is logged at all?

    The issue really seems to hang on revenue. It's well known that on-line advertising is massively ineffective and no-one will pay proper money for it. At the same time people expect to view content for free. Paywalls don't work so something has to pay for that content and that solution is to sell profiling data.

    You've only got to look at the adverts that target you to see how ineffective that is. Jaguar, for example, seem very keen to sell me one of their cars despite the fact that I couldn't in my wildest dreams afford one and don't have a license in any case.

    Amazon, who I use a lot, have algorithms so hopeless that they regularly try to sell me things I have already bought from them quite recently.

    Big brother states don't tend to last because they are hampered in their desire for total control by our two old friends and protectors; Laziness and Incompetence.
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

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    'The best I advice I ever received was to always remember that no-one else has any idea what they are doing either.'

  8. #28
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

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    I'm Martin.

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    Oops - sorry Gaz I deleted your duplicate post and now you have deleted the other one.

    EDIT: I've put it back now
    Martin



    Current Lash Up:

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    'The best I advice I ever received was to always remember that no-one else has any idea what they are doing either.'

  9. #29
    Join Date: Jan 2009

    Location: Essex

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    I'm openingabottleofwine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    Totally agree.

    In China they are deploying this technology along with other big data driving initiatives such as the Citizen score - if you are are a criminal - or a criminal as far as the state is concerned which might include someone with opinions contrary to the CCP or even just campaigning against some policy issue - your score will be reduced, to the point where you won't be able to get credit, rent an apartment or even buy a train ticket (you need state ID to buy train tickets in China).

    Great for tourists - Beijing has to be the safest place in the world for tourists, there are police, plain clothes or uniformed, on every street - but not so great if you don't go along with Chairman Xi's worldview.
    Exactly - whilst I haven't been in China or Tibet for thirty years, then the plain clothes police and eves dropper/informers were everywhere to be seen, loitering on street corners and near cafés and bars. I'm sure it's ten time worse now.

    In China, the individual is not important and is not to be trusted - the State is everything. It's been that way since the Qin period. The sad thing is the Han Chinese seem to be quite happy to be told what to think whilst enjoying their newly-gained prosperity.
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    Barry

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