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Thread: Chester Hifi Show 2018

  1. #41
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    For example, a piano recording for rock/pop will be close miked and have that in-yer-face sound, whereas a classical recording will be miked at more of a distance in suitable acoustic space and sound completely different.
    Indeed, and a really good system will reproduce both sounds with the requisite ability, to allow the listener to accurately differentiate between the two.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  2. #42
    montesquieu Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Indeed, and a really good system will reproduce both sounds with the requisite ability, to allow the listener to accurately differentiate between the two.

    Marco.
    My setup does rock just as well as it does classical, though I usually stick a moving magnet cartridge on in place of something more focused on capturing nuance - something like a Shure SC25C or M3D, or latterly a Tonar Diabolic E. It's not that these cartridges don't do detail, but that they emphasise a big full, ballsy sound which is what rock needs. (Though actually they do more rhythmic jazz pretty well too). A big ballsy deck like a Garrard 401 helps with this too.

    Recorded rock is a different beast from what you get at gigs though, rock gigs are raw and not nuanced in the least. If you want that kind of racket in your house all you need to do is run cable into a PA stack - almost nobody does that for very good reasons. In most rock recordings there is quite a bit of nuance there and you might well want to hear some nice use of space with placement of instruments and a bit of venue ambience - it's just a different balance of priorities (hence the cartridge swap).

  3. #43
    Join Date: Mar 2017

    Location: Seaford UK

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    I'm Dennis.

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    I've been without my Hi-Fi since Nov, and am surprised at the degree to which I am starting to hear sounds in reality which previously I had been oblivious to, for eg. the bass accompanying peeing into the bowl, and the real sound of bass from helicopters and cars.

  4. #44
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by montesquieu View Post
    My setup does rock just as well as it does classical, though I usually stick a moving magnet cartridge on in place of something more focused on capturing nuance - something like a Shure SC25C or M3D, or latterly a Tonar Diabolic E. It's not that these cartridges don't do detail, but that they emphasise a big full, ballsy sound which is what rock needs. (Though actually they do more rhythmic jazz pretty well too).
    Agreed, and that's why (as you know only too well), it's handy having a few different cartridges [and a detachable headshell arm to facilitate their use], all set up and ready to go, and which optimise different types of music

    Recorded rock is a different beast from what you get at gigs though, rock gigs are raw and not nuanced in the least. If you want that kind of racket in your house all you need to do is run cable into a PA stack - almost nobody does that for very good reasons. In most rock recordings there is quite a bit of nuance there and you might well want to hear some nice use of space with placement of instruments and a bit of venue ambience - it's just a different balance of priorities (hence the cartridge swap).
    Absolutely, and I fully concur with what you're saying. However, with enough experience (and a good recording of a live rock gig), plus the right equipment and speakers, all optimally set up, you can get a hi-fi system to recreate a convincing enough 'snapshot' [the 'feel' and intensity] of that live gig, without having to use a PA stack.

    I know, because I own many such recordings, and have often attended the gigs in question, in order to make a valid comparison. I was there, therefore I know how it sounded - and I can rattle my rib cage fairly easily, and 'suspend disbelief', by taking myself back to that gig in Düsseldorf, with a a nice bit of Rammstein!

    Essentially, it's about shifting plenty of air, so very large speakers are required, along with a powerful enough amp to drive and control them cleanly at high levels.

    What also helps is if the sound generated is able to pressurise the room, so you can create the required visceral impact, and 'feel' the sound, as well as hear it, in order to convincingly portray [at least to some degree] the 'trouser-flapping' effect you get at most rock gigs.

    Therefore it's very important to get the speaker/room interface and amplifier/speaker relationship right, and also ensure you have enough power available, to do what needs done. In my system, 95db efficient 15" Tannoy MGs in very large (inert) cabinets, driven by 50W of quality valve power, most of which is in Class A, used in a smallish (but acoustically sound) room, certainly manages it with sufficient aplomb!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  5. #45
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,771
    I'm Martin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jandl100 View Post
    Yup, that.

    But also to many people's ears rock music seems to "sound best" when the upper bass is thinned out and the treble somewhat accentuated. It's livelier, more exciting, faster. It's the Flat Earth sound. I've heard systems where it makes a grand piano sound like an upright honky-tonk.
    When playing classical, such a system is often a bit to a lot screechy and hollow sounding. The screech also often results in a graininess to the sound,
    The overall result can be a quite hilarious parody of the actual instruments being played.
    -- they really are enjoyable and impressive playing rock music, though.
    Flat earth systems are just poor systems in general. I'd disagree that they sound good with rock music. Maybe if it is a lush production, otherwise they just sound thin and hard, albeit 'fast'. I know exactly what you mean about the honky-tonk piano. Nothing to do with the actual piano used or the way it was recorded, it's the balance of the system. Everything on edge to make it sound 'exciting' or as the proponents would say, 'like live music.' It's fake hi-fi, and it's why flat earth proponents are always complaining about recording quality.
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  6. #46
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Talking of rock gigs, I'll be going to this in August:



    We're lucky to have a pretty thriving music scene around here

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  7. #47
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    Flat earth systems are just poor systems in general. I'd disagree that they sound good with rock music. Maybe if it is a lush production, otherwise they just sound thin and hard, albeit 'fast'.
    I completely agree. That's why, whilst acknowledging what it did well (after all I lived with it happily for over 5 years), I moved away from my Naim system and embraced some glowing bottles, especially when I heard how, when done properly, you could, as it were, have your cake and eat it...

    Btw, I fully expect you to achieve a similar realistic sounding 'snapshot' of rock music, such as I get in my system, when your Tannoys are built, and unleash the Krell on them!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  8. #48
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RothwellAudio View Post
    I've never understood the "it sounds like the gig" argument when it comes to rock music. What you're hearing at a (large) rock gig is the PA, and most rock gigs I've been to - and I've been to a lot - sound fairly horrible. However, you put up with it because "the event" and it's atmosphere and sense of occasion are more important than the quality of the sound.
    Indeed, but in terms of the goals we have with our systems, as hi-fi enthusiasts (to try and reproduce the original sound as accurately as possible), then surely if you're playing a good live recording of a rock gig, especially one at which you attended, then you want it to sound as close as possible (in the right way) to how it did when you were there?

    And there are ways and means of achieving that, without it sounding like you're listening to a bad PA stack. That's certainly what I strive to do with appropriate recordings.

    Fortunately, in that respect,, I live in a detached house with very solid walls, and have no immediate neighbours!

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


  9. #49
    Join Date: Aug 2009

    Location: Staffordshire, England

    Posts: 37,771
    I'm Martin.

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    You're not listening to a recording of the PA system though, your listening to a recording of the feed from the desk, and any subsequent post-production they have done on it, overdubs etc ; there are all sorts of tweaks they can do. So it's no different to a studio album in that respect.

    For true accuracy you need to recreate how it sounded in the mastering suite. Good luck!
    Current Lash Up:

    TEAC VRDS 701T > Sony TAE1000ESD > Krell KSA50S > JM Labs Focal Electra 926.

  10. #50
    Join Date: Jan 2008

    Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK

    Posts: 110,012
    I'm AudioAl'sArbiterForPISHANTO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Macca View Post
    You're not listening to a recording of the PA system though, your listening to a recording of the feed from the desk...
    Precisely, which is why you can get the music to sound good in your system, rather than like a distorted PA stack!

    Plus, if you play it loudly enough, and your system can handle that properly, without it falling apart [easier said than done], you can successfully recreate a snapshot of the visceral impact and 'trouser-flapping' effect you experienced at the gig - all combining to help you experience some of what you did when you were there, and therefore make what you hear at home with the recording, sound more convincing.

    For me, with that type of music, that's the whole point of owning the type of system I do. Different rules of course may apply with some other types of music.

    Marco.
    Main System

    Turntable: Heavily-modified Technics SL-1210MK5G [Mike New bearing/ETP platter/Paul Hynes SR7 PSU & reg mods]. Funk Firm APM Achromat/Nagaoka GL-601 Crystal Record Weight/Isonoe feet & boots/Ortofon RS-212D/Denon DL-103GL in Denon PCL-300 headshell with Funk Firm Houdini/Kondo SL-115 pure-silver cartridge leads.

    Paul Hynes MC head amp/SR5 PSU. Also modded Lentek head amp/Denon AU-310 SUT.

    Other Cartridges: Nippon Columbia (NOS 1987) Denon DL-103. USA-made Shure SC35C with NOS stylus. Goldring G820 with NOS stylus. Shure M55E with NOS stylus.

    CD Player: Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 DAC.

    Tape Deck: Tandberg TCD 310, fully restored and recalibrated as new, by RDE, plus upgraded with heads from the TCD-420a. Also with matching TM4 Norway microphones.

    Preamps: Heavily-modified Croft Charisma-X. LDR Stereo Coffee. Power Amps: Tube Distinctions Copper Amp fitted with Tungsol KT-150s. Quad 306.

    Cables & Sundries: Mark Grant HDX1 interconnects and digital coaxial cable, plus Mark Grant 6mm UP-LCOFC Van Damme speaker cable. MCRU 'Ultimate' mains leads. Lehmann clone headphone amp with vintage Koss PRO-4AAA headphones.

    Tube Distinctions digital noise filter. VPI HW16.5 record cleaning machine.

    Speakers: Tannoy 15MGs in Lockwood cabinets with modified crossovers. 1967 Celestion Ditton 15.


    Protect your HUMAN RIGHTS and REFUSE ANY *MANDATORY* VACCINE FOR COVID-19!

    Also **SAY NO** to unjust 'vaccine passports' or certificates, which are totally incompatible with a FREE society!!!


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